Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius
...
Do you believe your spirit will stand before the spirit that created the universe upon the death of your physical body.

Even though you didn't ask me, I'd like to chip in to correct some common misunderstandings.

Does conscious life continue for a person after the spirit leaves the body?

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit [Hebrew, from ruʹach] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (NAB, Ro, Yg, and Dy [145:4] here render ruʹach as “spirit.” Some translations say “breath.”) (Also Psalm 104:29)

Source: Soul (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

This nicely matches the condition of the dead as described at Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

The question “Does conscious life continue for a person after the spirit leaves the body?” was based on what was earlier quoted and explained there:

Is the soul the same as the spirit?

Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, ruʹach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Notice that the Hebrew word for spirit is ruʹach; but the word translated soul is neʹphesh. The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render ruʹach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”)

So as you can see, the soul should not be confused with the spirit (life-force) of a person. Also, neither survives the death of that person. No conscious thinking soul or spirit appears before God after death if that is what you were thinking about when you said "Do you believe your spirit will stand before the spirit that created the universe upon the death of your physical body." (note that the word "spirit" can have different meanings*)

Is there some part of man that lives on when the body dies?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul [“soul,” RS, NE, KJ, Dy, Kx; “man,” JB; “person,” TEV] that is sinning—it itself will die.”

Isa. 53:12: “He poured out his soul [“soul,” RS, KJ, Dy; “life,” TEV; “himself,” JB, Kx, NAB] to the very death.” (Compare Matthew 26:38.)

See also the main headings “Soul” and “Spirit.”

Source: Death (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

Myth 1: The Soul Is Immortal (One Myth Leads to Another)

What is the origin of the myth?

“The early Christian philosophers adopted the Greek concept of the soul’s immortality and thought of the soul as being created by God and infused into the body at conception.”​—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1988), Volume 11, page 25.

What does the Bible say?

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”​—Ezekiel 18:4, King James Version.

Regarding the creation of the first human soul, the Bible says: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul [Hebrew, neʹphesh].”​—Genesis 2:7.

The Hebrew word neʹphesh, translated “soul,” means ‘a creature that breathes.’ When God created the first man, Adam, He did not infuse into him an immortal soul but the life force that is maintained by breathing. Therefore, “soul” in the Biblical sense refers to the entire living being. If separated from the life force originally given by God, the soul dies.​—Genesis 3:19; Ezekiel 18:20.

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul raised questions: Where do souls go after death? What happens to the souls of the wicked? When nominal Christians adopted the myth of the immortal soul, this led them to accept another myth​—the teaching of hellfire.

Compare these Bible verses: Ecclesiastes 3:19; Matthew 10:28; Acts 3:23

FACT:

At death a person ceases to exist

* (from earlier about the different meanings for spirit): Spirit (Reasoning From the Scriptures)

Definition: The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek pneuʹma, which are often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and that causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired utterances originating with an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.

a reply to: neutronflux

Revelation 17:17

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: neutronflux

Revelation 17:17

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

AndI believe most want to do good. That doesn’t say either cannot be corrupted?

Let’s see the context.

www.biblegateway.com...


6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people,(R) the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7 Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery(S) of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.(T) 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss(U) and go to its destruction.(V) The inhabitants of the earth(W) whose names have not been written in the book of life(X) from the creation of the world will be astonished(Y) when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom.(Z) The seven heads(AA) are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not,(AB) is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

12 “The ten horns(AC) you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour(AD) will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.(AE) 14 They will wage war(AF) against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over(AG) them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings(AH)—and with him will be his called, chosen(AI) and faithful followers.”

15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters(AJ) you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.(AK) 16 The beast and the ten horns(AL) you saw will hate the prostitute.(AM) They will bring her to ruin(AN) and leave her naked;(AO) they will eat her flesh(AP) and burn her with fire.(AQ) 17 For God has put it into their hearts(AR) to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority,(AS) until God’s words are fulfilled.(AT) 18 The woman you saw is the great city(AU) that rules over the kings of the earth.”

The verses are referring to a specific time towards a specific person. Is that false.

a reply to: whereislogic

Did God rest on the 7th day after all of he's work was finished...?

All these other names derive from human understanding of its own religion namly the Jews.

There is no way these Jews would know Gods name. These Jews dident even accept Jesus as Gods begotten son. If they had known who their God is. They would also have known who Jesus was.

It makes a lot of sence why these Jews would not say Lord Gods name. Becuase it is the Dragon that romes in the garden of Eden. The Dragon who created the Serphent. They might as well call him the angel of light or the morning star.

These are also names accepted by christans to put on their beloved God/Jesus.

Christans tend to try to fitt everything in just because Genesis chapter two is in the Bible. They beleive it is all Gods work.
So we start to make things up, add ideas that dont make sense at all. Just to create a narrative that fits our believes...

You will only see this if you can be true to yourself.



It is all Gods work...., but God have handed out authority. And the Dragon, the Serphent are some of these creatures. These creatures also interact with Humans. No one knows what God looks like, so God is only known as Iam. But Lord God did walk in the garden of Eden. Adam and Eve knew who Lord God was, they also knew who the Serphent was. Because they both showed up in flesh before Adam and Eve. We can argue even if Adam knew the Serphent, because it was Eve who interacted with the creature.

God don't show up in flesh like Jesus did before man. God sends angles in he's place. And angels show up as they are.

a reply to: neutronflux

The verses are referring to a specific time towards a specific person. Is that false.

You have to read the verse again. Because the verse stat: Their harts. Not a specific person. A beast is not a person neither is a kingdom. The false prophet is a person. The Dragon is a creature/Angel.

People miss out on things like this all the time.

In genesis it is sxplained that Only Adam was cast out of Eden...It is in writing....But what are we being tought and what are we telling our selves.....

We are being tought and we are telling ourselves that they both got cast out. But it is not what the verse say.

a reply to: spy66

Again...

“The waters(AJ) you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.(AK) 16 The beast and the ten horns(AL) you saw will hate the prostitute.(AM) They will bring her to ruin(AN) and leave her naked;(AO) they will eat her flesh(AP) and burn her with fire.(AQ) 17 For God has put it into their hearts(AR) to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority,(AS) until God’s words are fulfilled.(AT) 18

The woman you saw is the great city(AU) that rules over the kings of the earth.”

More specific
“ They will bring her to ruin(AN) and leave her naked;(AO) they will eat her flesh(AP) and burn her with fire.(AQ) 17 For God has put it into their hearts(AR) to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority,
“

They is referring to action towards “her”, the action of “ into their hearts” is in regards to “her”.

“Her” is “ The woman you saw is the great city(AU) that rules over the kings of the earth.”

So. Yes. It’s for a specific time for a specific city (or the symbolic “her”. What will be in the hearts of the multitude to do in regards of “her”.

a reply to: spy66

I still might be off in the target of her vs beast. But the action of “ put it into their hearts” is for a specific time, specific situation, for a specific target.

Added and fixed.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will - That is, in regard to the destruction of this mighty power. They would be employed as his agents in bringing about his designs. Kings and princes are under the control of God, and, whatever may be their own designs, they are in fact employed to accomplish his purposes, and are instruments in his hands. See the notes on Isaiah 10:7. Compare Psalm 76:10.

biblehub.com...

Shrugs.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

Faith is the belief in the absence of evidence. Is that false?

Yes. It's not even an appropiate description of blind faith, which would be more like (if trying to use some of the same phrases): belief in spite of an absence of evidence (but actually better said, in spite of not being aware of evidence, and often not really caring all that much about it, believing something anyway; much closer to the definition for credulity).

Credulity definition, willingness to believe or trust too readily, especially without proper or adequate evidence; gullibility.

Source: dictionary.com

As explained in more detail in my comment on page 134 when I bolded "So faith is not credulity." in the piece concerning the meaning of "faith" as the related Hebrew and Greek words are used and described in the Bible. The Bible definitely does not encourage either blind faith or credulity. See for example the text quoted in my signature, an alternate rendering of the first part reads:

“A fool will believe anything.”—PROVERBS 14:15, TODAY’S ENGLISH VERSION.

Source: Do Not Be a Victim of Propaganda! (Awake!—2000)

The Bible encourages faith that is based upon evidence, knowledge of facts and using your God-given “thinking ability” (which includes your “powers of discernment”) to come to the right conclusions as to what is right/true/correct or wrong/false/incorrect.

“For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment* [Or “their perceptive powers.”] trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” (Heb 5:13,14)

The second recommendation for Winning the Battle for Your Mind, after the paragraph for "Be selective: ..." in that article about propaganda, is therefore:

Use discernment: Discernment is “acuteness of judgment.” It is “the power or faculty of the mind by which it distinguishes one thing from another.” A person with discernment perceives subtleties of ideas or things and has good judgment.

Using discernment, we will be able to recognize those who are merely using “smooth talk and complimentary speech” in order to “seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (Romans 16:18) Discernment enables you to discard irrelevant information or misleading facts and distinguish the substance of a matter. But how can you discern when something is misleading?

Put information to the test: “Beloved ones,” said John, a first-century Christian teacher, “do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions.” (1 John 4:1) Some people today are like sponges; they soak up whatever they come across. It is all too easy to absorb whatever is around us.

But it is far better for each individual personally to choose what he will feed his mind. It is said that we are what we eat, and this can apply to food for both the body and the mind. No matter what you are reading or watching or listening to, test to see whether it has propagandistic overtones or is truthful.

Moreover, if we want to be fair-minded, we must be willing to subject our own opinions to continual testing as we take in new information. We must realize that they are, after all, opinions. Their trustworthiness depends on the validity of our facts, on the quality of our reasoning, and on the standards or values that we choose to apply.

Ask questions: As we have seen, there are many today who would like to ‘delude us with persuasive arguments.’ (Colossians 2:4) Therefore, when we are presented with persuasive arguments, we should ask questions.

First, examine whether there is bias. What is the motive for the message? If the message is rife with name-calling and loaded words, why is that? Loaded language aside, what are the merits of the message itself? Also, if possible, try to check the track record of those speaking. Are they known to speak the truth? If “authorities” are used, who or what are they? Why should you regard this person—or organization or publication—as having expert knowledge or trustworthy information on the subject in question? If you sense some appeal to emotions, ask yourself, ‘When viewed dispassionately, what are the merits of the message?’

Do not just follow the crowd: ...

Source: Do Not Be a Victim of Propaganda! (Awake!—2000)

One is helped to appreciate more fully the meaning and importance of knowledge by examining the Hebrew and Greek words often translated “knowledge” as well as by noting the relationship between knowledge and wisdom, understanding, thinking ability, and discernment.
...
Related Attributes. ...

Source: Knowledge (Insight on the Scriptures)

Anyone interested in doing that can check out what I skipped there. In closing, I would like to leave you all with this wise counsel as an example of what type of faith the Bible encourages:

“Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.”​—1 Thess. 5:21.

Or as the Douay Version renders it, “prove all things: hold fast that which is good.”

“Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are.”—2 Cor. 13:5.

It is amazing how many times the Bible uses such words as “try,” “test,” “examine” and “prove.” It would be worth your while, in fact, to trace the usage of such words in a Bible concordance. You will be surprised, not only at the number of times they are used, but also at where, to whom and why they were spoken. Here, for example, are passages taken from six different epistles of Paul: “Be transformed by making your mind over, that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (Rom. 12:2) “First let a man approve himself after scrutiny.” (1 Cor. 11:28) “Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are.” (2 Cor. 13:5) “If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deceiving his own mind. But let him prove what his own work is.” (Gal. 6:3, 4) “Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord.” (Eph. 5:10) “Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.” (1 Thess. 5:21)

Source: “Keep Proving What You Yourselves Are”

a reply to: neutronflux

I know you dont have faith. That is why you dont understand what you read. Have you ever thought about any of this or is this your first time..?

a reply to: neutronflux

Well she is the women sitting on the beast. The chapter describes who she is and it also describes who the beast is, that she is sitting on.

5 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

She, the whore is the church.

You will find this whore in every nations of the world and in every city,town or community.

This whore does not just have authority in church.

If you have faith onto the church...You dont have faith in God. But to the whore. Because you go there to worship what she is preaching. She will make you feel good about your self.... Like you have done a good deed for the cause...... I bet Jesus is just rocking with joy by our actions... ANd at the same time Gods angel is telling you the truth about her.



And you think we have free will... I gues we do. Its not like God is not manifesting something with this at all...

a reply to: spy66

She, the whore is the church.

Which church? Catholic? Baptist’s. I like a good nondenominational church.

And the scriptures are written in the context of Israel.

Backed by what other scripture or historical context?

It’s right in the scripture as the context “ The woman you saw is the great city(AU) that rules over the kings of the earth.”

a reply to: neutronflux

Which church? Catholic? Baptist’s. I like a good nondenominational church.

The one that rules them all is the Vicar of Christ.

And the scriptures are written in the context of Israel.

The scripture that the world fallows is put to gether by Rome. Israel.... The Jews are divided when it comes to what religion they want to fallow.

But there is one religion that rules them all.... The Vicar of Christ. The Vicar Of Christ rule by politics, deception, economics and the sword. The US was not created for nothing.

a reply to: spy66

Vicar of Christ is by definition the Catholic Church? As in the church ran by the Pope. Good thing I not catholic. Shrugs.

Now. Back to the whore in revelation. What other scripture and / or prophecies supports your opinion?

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: neutronflux

I know you dont have faith. That is why you dont understand what you read. Have you ever thought about any of this or is this your first time..?

I have faith that you like to bludgeon people with your home brewed religion. But in reality it looks like you have unfounded opinions about people. Your making claims about individuals and relationships with God that is only God’s privilege to judge.

So your word has no weight. And seems only to try to anger people. It will all come out in the end.

a reply to: neutronflux

Vicar of Christ is by definition the Catholic Church? As in the church ran by the Pope. Good thing I not catholic. Shrugs.

It dosent mather what church or religion you belong to or have put your faith in... Faith have nothing to do with what religion you belong to or want to belong to.

What maters is what connection you have with God. Jesus did not preach in a church nor did Jesus wear any specific brand of clothing. Jesus dident have to display any of this to prove his authority. He's authority was the word. And the testamony of his father and the prophets.

The reason our church must have a specific branding to be authentic is because we are being groomed to have faith in titles and suites. If you don't dress properly or have the right title/certification of education your word and evidence is worthless.

The hart of our society is money. If you dont have it you are in a world of hurt. And you sure dont have a word to say that people will listen to. Because money talkes and bullshiit walks.

If you want to help someone today you are being asked to donate money. And we are bing told that if you just donate enough of you earnings we can save everyone... How stupid is that...? But peopel just dont get it... It is probably because they are fallowing the false prophet....!

a reply to: spy66

So no real evidence based in scripture or prophecy the whore in revaluation is the church? Other than your opinion?

Chapter Summary
Revelation 17 zeroes in on God's judgment of Babylon as the center of religious corruption in the tribulation. The target of this wrath seems to be an eclectic form of all apostate religions. This might be a concrete, single religion. Or, it might be a near-religious blending or equalizing of all spiritual beliefs. God views religious Babylon as ''the great prostitute'' that has support from heads of state. This system is both extremely rich and murderous, guilty of martyring saints. It has a past and a renewed existence as a religious-political system. Together, the political heads of state and religious Babylon battle Jesus, the Lamb, but He defeats them. The end of religious Babylon comes when the ten kings turn against her and ruin her. They destroy religious Babylon because God puts it in the hearts to do so.

www.bibleref.com...

Well. I don’t want anyone killed. I am not powerful. Not rich. Don’t spend my life plotting to become rich. I don’t live in a city or town. Have no great faith in a city. Not catholic. Have faith in Jesus over church. Church is to be the hands and feet of God.

You seem judgmental about a specific group of people more out of false authority? With no supporting scripture.

And cite where I ever promoted church, let alone church over Jesus.

Shrugs.

a reply to: neutronflux

I have faith that you like to bludgeon people with your home brewed religion. But in reality it looks like you have unfounded opinions about people. Your making claims about individuals and relationships with God that is only God’s privilege to judge.

It does not matter what you have faith in when it it comes to me, It is Jesus who will be the judge. According to scripture...

It is what i have been trying to say all the time. We dont have free will. Non of this is up to us, non of this is up to you. You are just playing your role in what is called life/reality. And there is nothing you can do about it.....

It dosent matter how much you want to be saved, if Jesus have a different verdict...

a reply to: spy66

It seems the whore to me is a false church or religion. That is not of Christ. Probably believes in something like universal salvation.

a reply to: spy66

You haven’t made your case we don’t have free will. And you used scripture out of context.

Sorry.

a reply to: spy66

If we don’t have free will, then why would a false religion that is an abomination to God spring up as the “whore”?