Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

MONO




Dear Spy66:


So very glad that you have appeared, I thought I have lost you, thanks!


Let us work together to arrive at a mutually agreed on concept on what it is to prove that something exists.


I say that No. 1, with things which are accessible to our external senses like sight, hearing, touch, taste, smell, and our super sense of consciousness, it is just simply to get to the object as to see or hear or touch or taste or smell or just be aware consciously of its presence, like for example, existence of the nose on our face or existence of air - just take a breath of air.


Now, the more challenging task is how to prove something to exist that is not accessible to our external senses like sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell, and of course our super sense of consciousness.


What do you say, dear Spy66, how do we prove that for example, God exists?


Happy honest intelligent productive thinking!

a reply to: Pachomius

To me it seams like you have been googleing som concepts of reality....

What really is... Is seen differently by each individual that is. No one ever actually preceives reality exactly the same.
That is why we have to have definitions....to describe things. That is why we have to go to school to be educated into having the same perspective of reality.

The world we have created to live in is not natural to us human beings. The whole system is manufactured. And you have to be educated to serve its purpose.

a reply to: Pachomius

Honest? You honest?

When you post BS like this?

Okay, dear Neutron, define faith - he will run away.

When your the one that runs from questions asked of you.

What post did you answer the below?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

Stop changing the subject..

What would you add to the definition of faith? What aspect of the definition needs changed?

What aspect of faith do you think needs covered? What aspect of faith is not adequately covered in the Holy Bible?

Why do the personal testimonies cornering the existence of God from the Holy Bible not count?

Do you believe your spirit will stand before the creator of the universe upon the death of your physical body?

How does your circular logic and your dogmatic definitions add to the Glory of God, and how will it change a heart harden against God?


Then when I post about faith so you don’t think “ he will run away.”

You post this BS after you cast unfounded personal insults: “ Okay, Neutron, no more derailing verbosity like citation of Webster's definition of faith.“


You want evidence of the god you claim exists? But all you have are definitions and circular logic?

John 20:24-29
New International Version
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Now Thomas(A) (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side,(B) I will not believe.”(C)

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace(D) be with you!”(E) 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”(F)

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed;(G) blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”(H)

www.biblegateway.com...

Five paragraphs with more evidence than what you supplied is what? 137 page’s?

MONO




Dear Spy66:

You see, I am into this idea that people can work together to concur on any idea at all, in order to take action on whatever people have to take action on together, otherwise people are just wasting their time and talents, as individually they cannot achieve anything of some grand scale, like building a massive dam for example.

Now, the issue God exists or not, it seems that no matter that atheists want to make it appear that it is a none issue at all, it is still of concern to folks who from their intelligent curiosity, they want to know to a human certainty, whether there is God or not.

At this point it is where people with honest intelligent productive thinking will get together to first work as to concur on what is the concept of God.

And it is also at this point that atheists make themselves dishonest un-intelligent and un-productive with insisting that God is an orbiting teapot in space (Bertrand Russell), and his today's emulators, God is a flying spaghetti monster, etc.

What I seem to notice is that today's honest intelligent productive thinkers, they don't go for anymore traditional religions like the ones grounded on some so-called revelation manuscripts of mankind thousands of years ago, like as I said: religions like Christianism, Islamism, and Hinduism, but they still tend toward at least some higher power.

Now, How do we prove the existence of a higher power, which higher power can be synonymous to the word God - and here is where I postulate the concept of God, namely, that God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


Anyway, you don't see any need to work at all with persons like me, to arrive at the concept of what it is to prove something to exist?

Or, even not bringing in higher power or God: what about in general, what is it to prove that something exists.

Or you are reluctant because it might take too much time and labor to think productively with your intelligence and good intention, to work mentally to that objective, how to prove that something exists?

a reply to: Pachomius

First of all. It really dosen't mather if God exists to us or not. To understand this concept you have to understand how it all started.

There is nothing you or i can do to change the future. You can't change time therefor you can only make one choice at a time. There is no way you can go back in time and change your last choice to a different one. There is only now...

If you dont get that reality is a straight line. We are not going to get anywhere.

The singularity is a vital issue. If you dont grasp it. You have no clue about evolution and you have no clue about religion. Moste peopel don't have a clue about anything, they are just reaching for straws....for the sake of argument.

There is another vital issue with religion that no beleviers hardly bring up.... and that is chapter two in genesis. Chapter two in genesis is actually a very important chapter for humanity to figure out.... Because chapter two have created much of peoples beleives....

At the end of genesis chapter one... Did God rest or did he not...?

MONO




Dear Spy66:



You care to get me to concur with you that everything is determined:

"There is nothing you or i can do to change the future."


Do I get you correctly, for you there is no free will?

MONO




Dear Neutron:


Here, I make for you an abstract on what for you from Webster's dictionary is faith:

"Faith is a thought and a sentiment in mankind to expect the best in a bad situation." (17 words)

.

So, because you have faith in God, you will get to heaven when you die - I am happy for you.

.

Now, what do you say, to prove the nose on your face, you can just touch it, okay?

What about the proof for the existence of air, you can just take a breath of air, okay?

For proof of a guy breaking wind, you can also just smell his posterior end, there, you can and do prove he has farted or not, okay?


What about the proof of the existence of a higher power aka God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning?

For you, dear Neutron, search the Bible on faith, see?

From Neutron

www.merriam-webster.com...


faith noun
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ˈfāth
plural faiths ˈfāths , sometimes ˈfāt͟hz
Definition of faith (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY
lost faith in the company's president
b(1) : fidelity to one's promises
(2) : sincerity of intentions
acted in good faith
2a(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction
especially : a system of religious beliefs
the Protestant faith
on faith
: without question
took everything he said on faith
faith verb
ˈfāth
faithed; faithing; faiths
Definition of faith (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
archaic
: BELIEVE, TRUST

In my bathroom I have a collection of seashells from around the world. Some I collected on the beaches, others I purchased. When you look at the entire collection you would say: The same artist designed and painted them all. Like a thesis for a gallery exhibit. And the artist God used matching natural earth colors in the beige, brown, white, and black shades.
Dog is God backwards. What an amazing gift a dog is! The God number is 3.14 everywhere. In a seashell, in your body, etc. by intelligent design. God might be energy.... since it’s everywhere and in everything. It’s very simple: Open your heart, mind, and eyes to the amazing miracles of life, science, math, physics, and religions which are all are an expression of worshiping a positive higher Devine power.

MONO






Dear frugal, have we met before?


I seem to get the impression that you are in wonder over the beauty of nature, and that stirs you to sing praise to God.


Now, right at this point of my thread I am in the process to prove that existence is permanent i.e. eternal, and from that step to prove that God exists, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


My launching pad is the task of first getting everyone including myself to concur on what it is to prove something to exist.

For the purpose of this task I distinguish between proving (i) something to exist which we have access to, by our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and the super sense of our consciousness, and (ii) something that we have no access to with our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and our super sense of consciousness.


(i) mode is simple easy and quick unless you are under complete anaesthesia, or in a comatose state.

(ii) mode is quite difficult but not impossible: difficult as the object is not accessible to our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and also of course our super sense of consciousness.


It is with mode (ii) that we will encounter even extreme difficulty but as I said it is not impossible, when we factor in the fact that we are classified by animal taxonomists (founder Carl Linnaeus d. 1778) as homo* sapiens i.e. living entity with intelligence, we can and do employ our brain to prove that something exists, notwithstanding that it is not accessible to our external senses of sight hearing touch taste and smell, and of course our super sense of consciousness.


Would you, dear frugal, give it a try with (ii)?



*Homo in Latin means a human, in Greek it means 'the same", as in homosexuals, i.e. men who do sex with fellow men, how? that's up to your imagination.

a reply to: spy66

The expression "Lord God" does not appear in honest accurate bible translations. The actual expression is "Jehovah God". God's name (whether spelled Jehovah, Yahweh, Iehova, or any other spelling) appears more than 7000 times in the Bible, but most (Trinitarian) bible translators will replace it with "the LORD", "the Lord" or "God" (obviously, that last replacement doesn't work for the expression "Jehovah God" cause then this particular deception would become a bit too obvious, people will start asking questions when their Bible would say "God God", or they might get suspicious at the very least; then again, the last one is pretty rare anyway, it's usually one of the first 2).

Talk about a conspiracy...



The behaviour is not new, see for example Jeremiah 23:25-28:

“I have heard the prophets who are prophesying lies in my name say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ How long will this continue in the heart of the prophets, to prophesy lies? They are prophets of the deceit of their own heart. They intend to make my people forget my name by the dreams they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot my name because of Baʹal. Let the prophet who has a dream relate the dream, but the one who has my word should speak my word truthfully.”
“What does the straw have in common with the grain?” declares Jehovah.



Context:

Defending the Divine Name (playlist)

a reply to: Pachomius

Do I get you correctly, for you there is no free will?

Our free will is very limited....

1. Scripture is already written to manifest it.

2. Time. There is only now. You can only deal with the present "now". You can not deal with the future. You can make plans for the future. But you still have to deal with time first.

Then you have your education, your experiance, the laws put on you, your physical and mental state. There are restrictions everywhere..... There are things you have to do before you can do what you want.

- God have plans, Jesus have plans, Satan have plans, your government have plans and you have plans. Where do you think your authority fits in..?

a reply to: Pachomius

You

Faith is a thought and a sentiment in mankind to expect the best in a bad situation." (17 words)

Yeap, that is one aspect of faith in the proper context. Seems your a one dimensional type of person. Not sure what your one aspect of faith has with no context, nor what it has to do with god? Are you wanting god to give your the best outcome?

Faith can also be a given persons name.

Anyway. Seems you picked the verb definition of faith?

www.merriam-webster.com...

faith verb
ˈfāth
faithed; faithing; faiths
Definition of faith (Entry 2 of 2)
transitive verb
archaic
: BELIEVE, TRUST

Congratulations on reinventing the wheel to a common conceived meaning of faith. Pretty much sums up your words, useless labor.

As proof?

I would say death of the physical body is the ultimate proof of existence in the physical world. Back to compare and contrast. Along with your nose can be ruined in that it will not provide your sense of smell. Or it can be permanently disfigured.

God in the Bible has saved persons from death, and worked healing. Is that false. So proof of God you believe exists. Is that false? Or was it some other god?


—————

Now, what aspect of faith is not covered by the Bible?

a reply to: Pachomius

You

So, because you have faith in God, you will get to heaven when you die - I am happy for you.

Where have I ever made such a statement in this thread. Please quote and cite?

Another attempt of implying I posted something I did not post, and intellectually dishonesty.

The actual question.

Do you believe your spirit will stand before the spirit that created the universe upon the death of your physical body.

a reply to: spy66

God knows the out come of free will. It doesn’t mean God is orchestrating free will. It’s still up to you to use free will. How you exercise free will is what is judged. It seems this life is some sort of spiritual boot camp. Shrugs.

a reply to: spy66

Or there is no ultimate moral authority. So nothing is really evil no matter how much someone wants it to be.

But.... Being a compare and contrast sort of guy.

Love can be pure. Unrestrained lust and jealously is the corruption of pure love. So morals come from someplace. Then there must be an ultimate moral authority which the pure form of love must steam from. If not, there is really no evil. All thing are on the table with no real consequence. Just what humankind chooses to punish. With some people violating the “social contract” rewarded with privilege and power. Using that power to punish others that want to violate the “social contract” to overthrow those that achieved power by violating the “social contract”.

God, or no god. Free will is a blessing and a curse.

a reply to: Pachomius

"Faith is a thought and a sentiment in mankind to expect the best in a bad situation." (17 words)

That isn't faith, that's hope.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: spy66

God knows the out come of free will. It doesn’t mean God is orchestrating free will. It’s still up to you to use free will. How you exercise free will is what is judged. It seems this life is some sort of spiritual boot camp. Shrugs.

Your free will is very much based on your current life experiance within a controlled society. Your knowledge and soscial skills and everything you know is manufactured through a established system since childhood. You dont controll the system... you live in it and you are dependent on it. The system you live in controlles and limits your free will.

The political and social system you live in have more free will than you do. Because it controlls you.

a reply to: neutronflux

Or there is no ultimate moral authority. So nothing is really evil no matter how much someone wants it to be.

In revelation there is a verse that say: God will put it in your hart so that he's word will come true. Do you think you would be able to reject what God puts in your hart..? If God wants you to do evil do you think you can do something different..?

a reply to: spy66

You

In revelation there is a verse that say: God will put it in your hart so that he's word will come true. Do you think you would be able to reject what God puts in your hart..? If God wants you to do evil do you think you can do something different..?

Chapter, verse, context would be nice?

a reply to: spy66

You

Your free will is very much based on your current life experiance within a controlled society.

Yet people choose to break the law. And many go through life with no consequences. Like speeding. Not all murders are caught.

You

Your knowledge and soscial skills and everything you know is manufactured through a established system since childhood.

Did Hitler break the social contract? What did he learn as a child.

The system you live in controlles and limits your free will.

Murder is evil. I chose not to murder because it is the right thing to do. Murder is against the law. Yet people do commit murder. I would hope most are caught and kept in a place so they cannot murder again. But there are murders that are never caught. I would say the desire to do good is more controlling for most people. Just law plays off that desire, and wanting life to be fair. Bad laws are a corruption of that desire. And only used against targeted segments, while those in the right group go consequence free for the same actions.