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Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

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posted on Sep, 14 2020 @ 08:22 PM
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    This is quite a long post, but if you anyone can't read a long post, just take my challenge to you: I want you, I challenge you, to engage we two together in a sustained discussion on any topic you want but in re the OP here, see * below



MONO




Thanks everyone, for your contribution to my thread, it is most gratifying, indeed!


Now, there are many points brought up by posters here, one most voluminous poster is Neutron, voluminous but what about the quality of honest intelligent productive ideas in his posts?


What can I say about Neutron that will give him credit?

He is reminiscent to me of Taliban fighters.


I say in an earlier post that my priorities here are two, one is the concept of God, and I repeat it again, even to your nausea, everyone, but you can't do the same, repeating something like me, because all you guys don't do honest intelligent productive thinking, for example, with pthena, he is always regurgitating things which he read of the distantly demised authors, but nothing of his own insights delivered in his very own concise clean simple language.

Okay, here is again my concept of God:

God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

And here is my second, say, ultimate premise, take it as the first ultimate premise, even first to my concept of God, namely:

Existence is the default status of reality.


My ambition is to meet any poster here who will interact with me on a sustained basis, i.e. on and on and on until we finally come to an agreed on premise in any anything at all, and then from that agreed on premise, we can go forth to discuss other matters, but of course, relevant to the OP of my thread here.

And here is again the OP for your guidance, every poster who cares to contribute to this my thread.

    NB My 12 steps to prove from evidence the existence of God in concept etc. below in Bonus.




*
Title of thread: Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.
Author of thread: Pachomius

posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM

OP of thread:
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?



    [Bonus]

    12 steps to prove the existence of God:

    Dear everyone, as there is an oft repeated request for me to show my proof on evidence for the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, allow me to reproduce my post, below, for your study.

    After you have studied it, may I just ask you to kindly bring up No. 1 line, for us all to discuss: you see, without your acceptance of No. 1, it is impossible for you to understand the whole procedure of my proof.

    So, if you don’t first bring up No. 1, I will opt to not give attention to your message.





    Pachomius posted on Aug, 9 2020 @ 07:13 AM
    .

    Dear everyone, here is my exposition proving from evidence the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

    .

    1. You and I and he she it, we all exist, do you accept that?

    2. You and I and he she it, we came from our parents, do you accept that?

    3. Our parents came from their parents, do you accept that?

    4. We all humans make up the human race, can you accept that?

    5. The human race had a beginning in the universe, can you accept that?

    6. Scientists tell us the universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago, can you accept that?

    7. There has been the domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, can you accept that?

    8. In that domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, there has got to be an entity, which created or caused the coming to the beginning of the existence of the universe, can you accept that?

    9. Evidence is anything existing which leads man to ascertain the existence of another thing, can you accept?

    10. Wherefore, man and the universe and everything with a beginning are the evidence to the existence of an entity, which created or caused them to come to existence, can you accept that?

    11. And therefore we can call that entity in concept and in name, as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, can you accept that?

    12. If you cannot or will not accept that God exists, are you not then either irrational or dishonestly stubborn against the existence of God?

    .


    Dear everyone, please point out what Number 1 to 12 you have difficulties with, okay?

    .
    www.abovetopsecret.com...





posted on Sep, 14 2020 @ 08:47 PM
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a reply to: Pachomius

Again

It’s not proof. It circular logic.

It’s no different than saying:

The universe is in a state of flux with matter always existing. After a cycle of collapse and expansion, the universe was reborn with mostly hydrogen. The hydrogen collected and formed the stars. The stars through fusion converted the hydrogen into heavier and heavier elements that compose the human body.

The elements were full of chemical potential energy. The chemicals combined until the primordial soup that gave rise to life was formed. Giving rise to chemical machines.

See logic is not proof.

Evidence is proof. Evidence is not a concept. Evidence is that what can be tested to show a result is true or false.

So you have your concept, what is the test to verify the concept as true. What would be done by a independent third party to test your theory?

Or you just only have faith like everyone else. While others have faith the universe was created god free.

Or how is believing their is a god because there is a source of goodness that is not evil any differently than you believing there is a god because people come from people?

And why would anyone trust your silly definitions when they can just have a personal relationship with God through faith.

Do you believe people have personal relationships with god?

edit on 14-9-2020 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed

edit on 14-9-2020 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed



posted on Sep, 14 2020 @ 11:36 PM
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a reply to: pthena

That might well be after they had "the talk", with your kindergarten teacher, eh ?


Some may say : that a chisel, in the hand of an artist ; becomes like the finest of brushes.

Yet others may say : Whip Trigen mustn't remouve the 'n' from the name ; not to be Whip Trige...




posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 01:53 AM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: spy66

Well. Good thing the New Testament is full of personal testimonies concerning God, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.


Yes, it is like reading a book. Your mind creates a relation to the events and you start to visualize.

This have nothing to do with faith. It dosent even create faith. Because you have no evidence. It just becomes a story.

Why do you think we keep on having these topics.



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 02:13 AM
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MONO





Dear Neutron, you are always hoping that new comers here will not know that you have been saying the same lie, all the time about circular logic with my proof of God existing from evidence.

I told you many times already to please define what is circular logic and give an example.


I told you 1000 (emphasis by exaggeration) times already, that from the concept of God we go forth into the world outside and independent (that's the test) of our mind to look for evidence, which evidence are babies and roses in the neighborhood, and also the nose on our face, there you have evidence for the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

But what is the use, for you Neutron evidence is your faith which is bound to your Bible, which you discredit with having no ground to rely on, except that what, you have faith.


Dear readers, this Neutron is one poster who is always taking to flight from any sustained exchange with me, mark my words, he will not engage in a sustained exchange with me, because even with his nose on his face, he will not accept that there is a nose on his face - unless he reads it in the Bible.



Ask him dear readers, to tell you what it is to prove something to exist, and he will eventually tell you that faith is his evidence, and he has a relationaship with God and Jesus Christ.

Even Jesus had to work miracles to prove that He is someone special, like Son of God.

But with Neutron it is all blind blind blind faith, and he does not even know what is the definition of faith at all, except the component of faith in irrational stubbornness in insisting that he has what, faith!



Okay, dear Neutron, define faith - he will run away.



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 03:30 AM
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originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: spy66

Well. Good thing the New Testament is full of personal testimonies concerning God, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.


Yes, it is like reading a book. Your mind creates a relation to the events and you start to visualize.

This have nothing to do with faith. It dosent even create faith. Because you have no evidence. It just becomes a story.

Why do you think we keep on having these topics.


There is personnel accounts and testimonies concerning God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.




John 20:24-29
New International Version
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24 Now Thomas(A) (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side,(B) I will not believe.”(C)

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace(D) be with you!”(E) 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”(F)

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed;(G) blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”(H)



If you don’t believe the account, that’s up to you.

But it is actual testimony concerning evidence. And better than Pachomius crap.

I guess the real question is one day will your spirit stand before the spirit that created the universe.



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 03:57 AM
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a reply to: Pachomius

You


Okay, dear Neutron, define faith - he will run away.


Look at you, more falsehoods by you

I have posted the definition of faith several times with working examples. Is that a false statement.

Why would you harm your credibility with such a easily proven wrong statement.

I bet your one of those people that ignore what is actually posted in the thread. You have selective memory. Or pride Where you ignore everyone else’s posts, and beliefs.

You didn’t answer what was actually posted. You should stay away from statements like “ he will run away” when your the one “running” away. So not only is there your documented falsehood, there is your documented hypocrisy.

Again... stop changing the subject.

It’s not proof. It circular logic.

It’s no different than saying:

The universe is in a state of flux with matter always existing. After a cycle of collapse and expansion, the universe was reborn with mostly hydrogen. The hydrogen collected and formed the stars. The stars through fusion converted the hydrogen into heavier and heavier elements that compose the human body.

The elements were full of chemical potential energy. The chemicals combined until the primordial soup that gave rise to life was formed. Giving rise to chemical machines.

See logic is not proof.



edit on 15-9-2020 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 03:59 AM
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a reply to: Pachomius

This is a good lesson.

In concept you believe this “ Okay, dear Neutron, define faith - he will run away.“ But the citable evidence is your full of falsehoods.



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 07:11 AM
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a reply to: neutronflux




There is personnel accounts and testimonies concerning God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.


There is. Do all that read the text understand...

A text is just a text. What made you have faith in them..? I have laid out your answer for you, but i hope its not the one you will use.

There are peopel who even doubt that Jesus existed. The text dident help them much.




If you don’t believe the account, that’s up to you.

But it is actual testimony concerning evidence. And better than Pachomius crap.

I guess the real question is one day will your spirit stand before the spirit that created the universe.


You should not beleive everything you read. You should not beleive everything you are being told.....

You dont have it do you.... You are just a beleiver.




edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 07:28 AM
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a reply to: spy66

You


You should not beleive everything you read. You should not beleive everything you are being told.....




Then what is credible enough to believe in this thread?

Why do you think it’s important to have a personal relationship with God.

You didn’t answer to:

I guess the real question is one day will your spirit stand before the spirit that created the universe?



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 01:33 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux




You didn’t answer to:

I guess the real question is one day will your spirit stand before the spirit that created the universe?


You already have. It is what you have read in scripture....

But you should not worry about me.... that is my job. You should worry about you.

It is not only I who will die..... We all will in due time. We will all stand before the gate of light at the end. Some of you have already been there and seen it. And have been rejected. But not because you were not found worthy. Some where brought back into flesh to forfill their mission. We are all a part of Gods plan.

Just us interacting is a part of the plan. There is only one timeline.... You and I are now a part of it. And there is no way you can alter it. But not only you, everyone who reads this are as well.....


edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 01:43 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux

You say there is something like faith in the inexistence of God while there is no proof of that.



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 01:48 PM
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You say there is something like faith in the inexistence of God while there is no proof of that.
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

What kind of proof are you looking for...? The kind he can not provide?



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 01:52 PM
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a reply to: spy66

You


You should worry about you.


Why? I have faith in God. And my hope is not in the material world.



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 01:52 PM
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originally posted by: spy66

What kind of proof are you looking for...? The kind he can not provide?



Given the complexities of all creation, and how carefully everything is tuned to allow life to perpetuate, there is without a doubt a higher intelligence that designed it. If someone cannot come to terms with this they are just being stubborn, wishing and hoping there is no God despite the abundance of evidence demonstrating His logical creation



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 02:02 PM
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originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: spy66

What kind of proof are you looking for...? The kind he can not provide?



Given the complexities of all creation, and how carefully everything is tuned to allow life to perpetuate, there is without a doubt a higher intelligence that designed it. If someone cannot come to terms with this they are just being stubborn, wishing and hoping there is no God despite the abundance of evidence demonstrating His logical creation


When the singularity was formed. All the complexities were set. Everything that ever was and that ever will be were decided when the singularity was formed. Even your reply to me. Wrap your head around that.....



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 02:03 PM
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Allow me to throw a wedge into the gears of this post for a moment .

These peace talks in the middle east between Israel and the Arab States are absolutely ground breaking , these talks also point to the prophecy of the Anti-Christ and the End times. I have not heard any real talks about the rebuilding of the Lords temple , but I'm sure those discussions are close.

So my point is in bringing that up, We as a planet are about to see if the Christians/Jews/Islam got this one right we might just see in the very near future EVIDENCE of God .

OR perhaps all of these peace talks will simply come to pass , the construction of the Temple will come to pass and the World will continue spinning .






posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 02:04 PM
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originally posted by: spy66

When the singularity was formed. All the complexities were set. Everything that ever was and that ever will be were decided when the singularity was formed. Even your reply to me. Wrap your head around that.....



The Alpha and Omega point. The beginning singularity which expanded outwards into duality, which will one day return the Unity. The thing we are seldom told about the observations regarding the big bang expansion is that it occurred at every point in the universe simultaneously. There is no true center, because all points are equally true to be the center. This accounts for the omni-presence of this primordial Source



posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 02:17 PM
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MONO




Dear Neutron:

I say you lie, and you say I lie.

This can go on and on and on and on...


Suppose with honest intelligent productive thinking we work as to concur on what is existence and how we come to know it?


In the meantime, I will just tell you that you have faith but it amounts to nothing except that for yourself you are certain, even that you will get to your reward from your God in heaven.

Faith is all fanaticism from your heart and mind, it is nothing to people unless they choose to follow you and you give them bread.


Awaiting your reply, I remain

Yours truly.





Neutron posted on Sep, 16 2020 @ 03:52 AM
- - - - - - - - - - - -

[ . . . . ]

I have faith in God. And my hope is not in the material world.




posted on Sep, 15 2020 @ 02:24 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: spy66

You


You should worry about you.


Why? I have faith in God. And my hope is not in the material world.


Why..... You say.

Because it is all about your future. Not just mine....

I have to laugh.... Do you think God cares if you dont worry about material things. It is not what scripture is about.

When you die.. you bring nothing of that with you.

Scripture is not about what you have or can aquire with tender..... Scripture is about faith and loyalty.

Jesus never needed a church or a temple to talk to people. Jesus never needed to wear special clothing to speak to people... But what does scripture tell you about all these things...? Probably that you would have to have all these temples, alters and clothings to be authentic...




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