Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

a reply to: toktaylor

You did a copy n paste that's so clever.

I find that the argument “the universe is so intricate/perfect/complicated that it MUST have a creator” rather illogical. First of all, if you say that the universe is too complex to exist without a creator, then it is not illogical to say the God himself must have a creator and so on. Of course the argument here is that God is everything that is anything, therefore no creator of God, but then why couldn’t the universe be that way?

Fact :
An infinite number of retro generations is impossible and therefore it
is certainly not at all a valid argument to refute causeless causeless
causeless causeless causeless cause. In fact anyone still making use pf
such an argument as who created the creator is lame and thinking more
about disproving God than they are science.

Further more anyone with half a brain should understand that the
Creator would not be the Creator if he had a Creator. So much for
Richard Dawkins and any one else who uses this lame argument.

There is only one other option

There is no argument against the existence of God.

a reply to: neutronflux

Then Russia purposefully crashed the petroleum market.

That is not true. It is actually the US who have instigated this by sanctioning Russia because Russia whent into Ukraine.

Since the US are sanctioning Russia so does all who play on the US team have to sanction russia as well. Russia wants to sell oil and Gass.. But i guess the US dont want Russia to sell that much of it.

a reply to: carsforkids

There is at least one scientific statment that i find odd that no one questions when it comes to scientific statmens, and that is what science say about the singularity.

Science state that the singularity was infnitely small when it was formed. How can science who are suposed to be all about facts come up with such a statment..?

What facts does science have to make such a claim...?

Infinitely small is the same as non existing. You can never reach the scale of infinitely small....ever. That would be like zooming in for ever until you see something in your scope. But you never will because what you are looking for is infinitely small. It is non existing....

By making such a claim it would be like the scientific community assume that people are idios that wont question their claim.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: carsforkids

There is at least one scientific statment that i find odd that no one questions when it comes to scientific statmens, and that is what science say about the singularity.

Science state that the singularity was infnitely small when it was formed. How can science who are suposed to be all about facts come up with such a statment..?

What facts does science have to make such a claim...?

Infinitely small is the same as non existing. You can never reach the scale of infinitely small....ever. That would be like zooming in for ever until you see something in your scope. But you never will because what you are looking for is infinitely small. It is non existing....

By making such a claim it would be like the scientific community assume that people are idios that wont question their claim.

The same argument can be made about an infinite creator. Lets try this one: how does an infinitely large & totally omnipresent wizard make a universe big enough to stand in? You see how the concept of infinitude gets hairy no matter how much magic is involved.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Bring God here in the flesh to discuss with us in his own words. I'm not interested in dealing with customer support.

You make requests like this despite this already happening and it all being recorded. I'm not customer support, I'm coming from the front lines saying that the war is already won but you refuse to believe the good news.

Oh well. Whenever you're ready to step off the atheist hamster wheel you will be shown the way.

Oh. So you are helpless to give me anything except empty platitudes about how my standards are the problem and not your snake oil. Typical epistemology rhetoric. Next time you see him, let him know there's a whole forum of inquiring minds who would love to shake his hand and sit down for a coffee and a chat. We insist.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I guess that your answer is that you agree that science have gone out of their way to explain the singularity.... They have lied about their claim. They have no scientific facts to back up their claim that the singualrity was infnitely small when it was formed. And i agree that is #ing bullship science. But why don't you want to argue this...?

....................................................

I dont know how you can create a assumtion that the scientific claim can be related to a creator that is infinite and takes up all space there is. It is way different to something that science claim. Science claim that the singularity was infinitely small. God is not infinitely small but infinitely large. God takes up all space there is. A omnipresent is absolute and must take up all space there is. Because it is a absolut constant. It is absolute time.

If you are smart you know that the scientific claim is related to God. Do you know that something that is infinitely small is also infinitely large..? It is so because the singularity is non existant. The only thing that exist is the infinite.

DO you grasp this...? This is math one on one..........

a reply to: neutronflux

There is no control. Democrats want full authority. So rioting and looting. Is that what control looks like. Conservatives want control and would like to go back to a constitutional republic. If anything, the USA is out of control and many a American does not like it.

Chaos is a means to an end mate , a state that is in chaos is easy to manipulate to mold into something new it's like cooking you have to chop , boil , mix and cook to get the dish finished .

I digress lets not make this political.

The Middle East has always been out of control. But Iran is happy that is making Iraq more and more it’s puppet. With many other Middle Eastern Countries not happy with the situation.

The middle east will remain out of control untill we and every other developed nation have sucked every natural resource they have from the Desert. It's simple economics.

So your fake illusions that somebody is in control are delusional. I don’t think control means what you think it means.

You strike me as being young ? your conclusions and arguments are a little naive but don't take offense to that.
You don't seem like you have lived very much , I'm guessing your in your mid to early 20's possibly younger ?

A retort to your statement though , I never said anything was in control including God , it's obvious that our Universe is a system of cause and effect with the occasional paradoxical event.

So a more accurate sentiment would be, that I don't think God represents what you think God represents .

a reply to: spy66

Science state that the singularity was infnitely small when it was formed. How can science who are suposed to be all about facts come up with such a statment..?

These threads are truly a great exercise case in point is quoted.
You know I've always just let that (infinitely small) creep by me as just
a form of expression but you're right! It is more of a common census.
That is very odd. Wow good catch and thanks for your trouble sharing that.
What a key. Your avatar is now a part of that piece of knowledge locked
in memory unto my departure from this place.

I hope that doesn't sound to romantic in any way but it is the truth.

I hesitate to run conjecture on that at present. I want to let it roll around
upstairs for a while first.

a reply to: TzarChasm

The same argument can be made about an infinite creator. Lets try this one: how does an infinitely large & totally omnipresent wizard make a universe big enough to stand in? You see how the concept of infinitude gets hairy no matter how much magic is involved.

Well this makes a ton of sense. you believe in a wizard but not God? WTF Chaz?
Seriously? lol

And nobody's falling for the little trap you set in the open on a wooden floor. lol
good try tho.

a reply to: carsforkids


This is the issue all of these people face.

Lets try this one: how does an infinitely large & totally omnipresent wizard make a universe big enough to stand in?

The answer is that no matter what reality this ominent wizard creats it wont be to larger for him to stand in. Not when the ominent wizard is infinitely large and takes up all space there is. What ever he makes will be smaller. Because it will be finite. And all finite have a set finite scale an dcan never be infinite.....

There is a reason why science stat that the sigularity was infinitely small. It is because they know that a finite is infinitely small no mather what scale you use when compared to the infinite.

Our universe would seam infinitetly small if you are infinitely far way from it.

a reply to: carsforkids
The argument you’ve offered here is that “Scientists do not know what life is — how it originates or how the Universe came to be.

Well… even if that’s true… I don’t think any scientific journal would publish that, because it’s an argument from ignorance. We cannot reason that because something is unknown, invisible gods must’ve done it. If something is unknown, it only proves that it’s unknown. And just because it’s unknown, it does not follow that it’s too complicated for human minds to comprehend.

It’s like a crime scene; just because we don’t know who murdered the victim, we don’t assume that God must’ve stabbed them. We assume there IS an explanation, we just don’t know what it is yet. And even if the crime goes unsolved, it doesn’t mean God did it or that the cause was too complicated for humans to understand, it just means there wasn’t enough evidence remaining to prove what happened.
Science examine the clues to arrive at the facts..Ii have an appreciation for that rather than the cop out option that we don't know... so God it.

originally posted by: toktaylor
a reply to: carsforkids
The argument you’ve offered here is that “Scientists do not know what life is — how it originates or how the Universe came to be.

Well… even if that’s true… I don’t think any scientific journal would publish that, because it’s an argument from ignorance. We cannot reason that because something is unknown, invisible gods must’ve done it. If something is unknown, it only proves that it’s unknown. And just because it’s unknown, it does not follow that it’s too complicated for human minds to comprehend.

It’s like a crime scene; just because we don’t know who murdered the victim, we don’t assume that God must’ve stabbed them. We assume there IS an explanation, we just don’t know what it is yet. And even if the crime goes unsolved, it doesn’t mean God did it or that the cause was too complicated for humans to understand, it just means there wasn’t enough evidence remaining to prove what happened.
Science examine the clues to arrive at the facts..Ii have an appreciation for that rather than the cop out option that we don't know... so God it.

This is a good argument .

But I would argue there is plenty that human minds simply cannot quantify , We lived on an earth for thousands of years that was flat thousands of generations of people went to there graves believing we lived on a flat land mass floating in the cosmos everything rotating around us .

This was fact .... until it wasn't , all of the sudden scientist made new measurements new equations showing a sphere shaped Earth rotating around the Sun , now thousands of generations of people go there graves believing this as fact .

My point is there is plenty that Science/Scientist cannot measure simply because they do not know how to measure it . Our Universe is governed via itself , we are a creation of our Universe or Visa versa it by us , we simply do not know we have not evolved far enough to quantify it .

If there is a God and I believe there is , God exist outside our Universe our existence our understanding .

a reply to: toktaylor


Well science does claim to know how our universe came to be.... They use the singualrity argument. It is a good argument because it is related to what scripture state. Moste aithiest don't seam to grasp the message science give.

These athiests seam to grasp at other straws that dont even make sense. They tend to use the term magic and the multifingered actopus to illustrate something not even a christian would stand by.... I dont know know why they would use these arguments... It is bloody folish of them.... It dose not serve their argument at all. But i guess that they dont know any better.....They dont dont know how to argue their point at all.

They claim to stand by their scientifc facts, but the issue is that there are no scientific fact in their own arguments.

a reply to: toktaylor

The argument you’ve offered here is that “Scientists do not know what life is — how it originates or how the Universe came to be.

No it doesn't.

Here I quoted it for you.

Fact :
An infinite number of retro generations is impossible and therefore it
is certainly not at all a valid argument to refute causeless causeless
causeless causeless causeless cause. In fact anyone still making use pf
such an argument as who created the creator is lame and thinking more
about disproving God than they are science.

Further more anyone with half a brain should understand that the
Creator would not be the Creator if he had a Creator. So much for
Richard Dawkins and any one else who uses this lame argument.

There is only one other option

There is no argument against the existence of God.

Try being honest with yourself you only think you have something
to fear. I'm looking to make you more aware in your quest for
science. I don't want to take science from you. You are an intelligent
master piece easily misled with out the guidance we all have lost.
I plead with you to see that thru your Heavenly Father you would
excel mightily in your field. If I know anything I know this.

God be with you

a reply to: carsforkids


There are no infinite solution to life. Life was already decided when the singularity was formed. All properties for life was set when the singularity was formed. Life is not a random cause..... The singularity must have had all the properties within it..... And everything manifested it self through time. And life as we know it appeared....
History as our vitenes will comfirm that.

a reply to: spy66

And God bless you Spy and all of ATS.

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: TzarChasm

The same argument can be made about an infinite creator. Lets try this one: how does an infinitely large & totally omnipresent wizard make a universe big enough to stand in? You see how the concept of infinitude gets hairy no matter how much magic is involved.

Well this makes a ton of sense. you believe in a wizard but not God? WTF Chaz?
Seriously? lol

And nobody's falling for the little trap you set in the open on a wooden floor. lol
good try tho.

All semantics aside, your whole creationist hypothesis hinges on the existence of a cosmic wizard who utters an invocation and magics our world and all life into being. That's why humans are supposed to be demigods because God was modeled after our own existence, psychology and character defects included. Ask a psychiatrist to profile the almighty and see how that works.

a reply to: TzarChasm

All semantics aside, your whole creationist hypothesis hinges on the existence of a cosmic wizard who utters an invocation and magics our world and all life into being. That's why humans are supposed to be demigods because God was modeled after our own existence, psychology and character defects included. Ask a psychiatrist to profile the almighty and see how that works.

Why would I have any interest in putting God on a couch? To be
analyzed by a human being with a Phd in any medical field of
your choice? Much less one of the flimsiest inaccurate fields of
medicine. Where the least amount of knowledge is accrued?

And BTW what psychiatry has to say about atheists? Should be taboo
for you to avoid it's mention in this conversation. The studies that google
does have up I'm sure are minute and aren't anything you would brag about.

Try again?

originally posted by: toktaylor

It’s like a crime scene; just because we don’t know who murdered the victim, we don’t assume that God must’ve stabbed them. We assume there IS an explanation, we just don’t know what it is yet. And even if the crime goes unsolved, it doesn’t mean God did it or that the cause was too complicated for humans to understand, it just means there wasn’t enough evidence remaining to prove what happened.
Science examine the clues to arrive at the facts..Ii have an appreciation for that rather than the cop out option that we don't know... so God it.

Yet, to continue your metaphor, we do know a murder happened. That is what we start with. So too, we as logical humans beings can start with logic to discern what happened. Since logic surely exists, we must know that there is a logical solution. Since the solution is logical, we know that the source is Logical, and not illogical. From here our world opens up, and everything begins to have purpose. No longer do we live in nihilist dread, because we can now see the dawn and the hope that this hyper-intelligence has in store for its intelligent children.

MONO




Dear Tzar, I ask everyone posting here to present your concept of evidence, within these (see quote following) requirements:

on Sep, 9 2020 @ 05:41 AM originally posted by Pachomius


[. . . .]

For the rest of ye all posters here, if you care to work with me as to for us all to arrive at a concurred on concept of what is evidence, please observe these two requirements from me, so that you will be into honest intelligent productive thinking, instead of useless posting.

1. State right away what is evidence, Is it a bird, or a kite, or anything at all existing?
2. Reduce to the maximum of just 15 words or less your draft of your concept of evidence.

So, do honest intelligent productive thinking, and draft your concept observing the requirements above, otherwise you are not capable of honest intelligent productive thinking.


Here is my concept of evidence:

:: From Pachomius: Evidence is anything at all existing leading man to know another thing existing. (13 words)

.