Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: pthena

What about Adam and Yahweh?

Adam is the product of Lord God and not thee God.

------ God rested on the seventh day.......And all that thee God created was good. That is not the case in Lord Gods Eden East of Eden.

a reply to: Out6of9Balance

What about Adam and Yahweh?

Different cultures(cities, city states, empires) formulate origin myths to make an accounting of how the culture came to be. In many cases these origin myths also make an accounting of creation in order to give the culture credibility as having long standing roots. That's how Origin myths become Creation myths.

Imagine that Judean culture traces back to David. But that's not far back enough for big time cred. Extend back to mythological Moses and the mythological exodus from Egypt. Not good enough yet, go back to mythological Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. getting close, almost there. Adam and Yahweh! Bingo.
Exodus 6:3, Yahweh speaking to Moses:

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El-Shaddai—‘God Almighty’—but I did not reveal my name, Yahweh, to them.

The name Yahweh didn't even exist as a name yet in the alleged time of Abraham (c1800 B.C.), much less the time of mythological Adam (c B.C.4004) (the little c means circa or approximate).

Back before c A.D. 1850 Western Christian Scholarship was rather stupid. They believed that Hebrew was the original language that God taught to humans. They believed that God taught Moses the first form of written language c 1400 B.C. , so that Moses could author the book of Genesis. They were totally wrong. Written languages existed way before mythological Moses.

Hebrew was a derivative language from Canaanite. The written Hebrew was derived from Phoenician. There was no word Yahweh in 4000 B.C. when mythical Adam allegedly came to be.

a reply to: spy66
I find that the argument “the universe is so intricate/perfect/complicated that it MUST have a creator” rather illogical. First of all, if you say that the universe is too complex to exist without a creator, then it is not illogical to say the God himself must have a creator and so on. Of course the argument here is that God is everything that is anything, therefore no creator of God, but then why couldn’t the universe be that way?

Second, the universe is really not perfect, not even close. Outside of Earth and a few (if any) choice planets, you will literally find empty space, filled with random lifeless rocks, gas balls (which of course we better know as stars), black holes, and… more empty space. So have we actually found any life forms on another planet (apart from some bacteria, which in Christianity is inconsequential anyway)? If a star explodes a billion light years away, does it affect humans, the centre (almost, of course God is always at the centre) of the Christian religion, in any way? Of course, the rest of the universe could just be part of the often mentioned “God’s plan”. Obviously God wanted said star to explode because… well, just BECAUSE. (stop asking ) And that is where you get to a dead end. Maybe God wanted to make another planet with life in it.

And what if we did find life on another planet? Maybe Earth isn’t so special after all, huh? Maybe humans aren’t so special after all. I’m actually curious as to what Christians would do when that happened.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Pachomius

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
There's no cause and effect, there's freedom.

Dear Out6, I can't make out what is your point with saying:

"There's no cause and effect, there's freedom."


Please elaborate.


Here are the points I am making with my earlier message:

1. Do you notice that monotheists are always into causation, and atheists eschew causation:

2. because they know in their heart of hearts, that if they care to do honest intelligent productive thinking, and investigate causation,

3. they will inevitably sooner than later come face to face with God,

4. God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

Pachomius posted on Sep, 5 2020 @ 08:46 AM
Dear readers here and my opponents here, and also atheists, do you notice that monotheists are always into causation, and atheists eschew causation: because they know in their heart of hearts, that if they care to do honest intelligent productive thinking, and investigate causation, they will inevitably sooner than later come face to face with God, God in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

.

It's critical to note that when you are studying causation you must be able to identify the nature of the cause by measuring and documenting its explicit properties so those quantified qualities can be confirmed from as many investigative channels as possible. Saying "we know what happened but we don't know how" is an oxymoron. And being unable to demonstrate that phenomenon in action is also problematic. Simply inserting some cosmic anthropomorphic creature without laying the groundwork for how it was measured and identified and documented is lazy. No one on earth has any actual evidence of divine or supernatural material that can be examined in a practical environment and studied by experts from every field. It just doesn't exist.

In addition to the text quoted above, let me add a quick explanation of what "evidence" means for people who have trouble with dictionaries.

Evidence is the act of presenting a body of facts and demonstrating a causality between those facts, establishing the relationship described above. I hope you don't need me to draw you a picture of what facts are and how they work, Pachomius.

a reply to: Pachomius

In my humble opinion.

Yes God exist, BUT not in the way we think .

God is beyond us , and with our less than adequate minds we see but one small piece of the Pie and the Piece we see is two dimensional , while I'm sure the Pie God made is four dimensional .

We know nothing of God and to think that we do is pure hubris , The Bible is a load crap written by Jewish mystics and other random people over the ages then finally assembled under the Romans . The Bible is a system of control nothing more nothing less , it has nothing to do with the God of the Universe.

God is neither Good nor Evil , these are Human concepts.

God is God and for that very reason we will never understand unless God wants us to understand .

MONO




So, it is the common wrong attitude it appears for posters to go on and on and on, talking derails, for they fear to work on their concept of evidence, so as to get connected with the thread here.


Anyway, I will just do another reset of my thread here, so that at least they will know that they are into derails.

Here is my reset of the thread plus the bonus of my 12 steps on proving from evidence the existence of God.


Please be guided accordingly.

NB My 12 steps to prove from evidence the existence of God in concept etc below.

Title of thread: Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.
Author of thread: Pachomius

posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM

OP of thread:
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?

Pachomius posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM

On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?

12 steps to prove the existence of God:
Dear everyone, as there is an oft repeated request for me to show my proof on evidence for the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, allow me to reproduce my post, below, for your study.

After you have studied it, may I just ask you to kindly bring up No. 1 line, for us all to discuss: you see, without your acceptance of No. 1, it is impossible for you to understand the whole procedure of my proof.

So, if you don’t first bring up No. 1, I will opt to not give attention to your message.

Pachomius posted on Aug, 9 2020 @ 07:13 AM
.

Dear everyone, here is my exposition proving from evidence the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

.

1. You and I and he she it, we all exist, do you accept that?

2. You and I and he she it, we came from our parents, do you accept that?

3. Our parents came from their parents, do you accept that?

4. We all humans make up the human race, can you accept that?

5. The human race had a beginning in the universe, can you accept that?

6. Scientists tell us the universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago, can you accept that?

7. There has been the domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, can you accept that?

8. In that domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, there has got to be an entity, which created or caused the coming to the beginning of the existence of the universe, can you accept that?

9. Evidence is anything existing which leads man to ascertain the existence of another thing, can you accept?

10. Wherefore, man and the universe and everything with a beginning are the evidence to the existence of an entity, which created or caused them to come to existence, can you accept that?

11. And therefore we can call that entity in concept and in name, as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, can you accept that?

12. If you cannot or will not accept that God exists, are you not then either irrational or dishonestly stubborn against the existence of God?

.


Dear everyone, please point out what Number 1 to 12 you have difficulties with, okay?

.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

.

MONO




Attention to posters who care to give their concept of what is evidence:


I will not attend to your definition unless you can succeed to the following requirements:

1. Right from the start mention what is evidence, is it a kite, is it a bird, is it a pot of gold, is it flying spaghetti monster, is it something that exists - otherwise don't bother to proffer your concept of evdience.

2. Limit your concept to not more than the maximum of 15 words.


If you cannot comply with these two reaquirements, then for my own insight that is evidence that you have no capacity for genuine honest intelligent productive thinking and writing.


Here is my definition of what is evidence:

"Evidence is anything at all existing leading man to know another thing existing." (13 words)

.

originally posted by: Pachomius
MONO




Attention to posters who care to give their concept of what is evidence:


I will not attend to your definition unless you can succeed to the following requirements:

1. Right from the start mention what is evidence, is it a kite, is it a bird, is it a pot of gold, is it flying spaghetti monster, is it something that exists - otherwise don't bother to proffer your concept of evdience.

2. Limit your concept to not more than the maximum of 15 words.


If you cannot comply with these two reaquirements, then for my own insight that is evidence that you have no capacity for genuine honest intelligent productive thinking and writing.


Here is my definition of what is evidence:

"Evidence is anything at all existing leading man to know another thing existing." (13 words)

.

You're ignoring me because I'm making some damn good points and you know it. I can keep reposting as long as I feel like it serves a purpose buddy.

MONO





Dear Tzar:


No need to flatter yourself, it's like you are the mother praising herself for giving birth to a terrific baby - Nemo judex in causa sua.


Just if you are good, follow my requirements and produce your concept of evidence.

Tzar posted on Sep, 9 2020 @ 09:43 AM



[ quote] (originally posted by: Pachomius)

MONO




Attention to posters who care to give their concept of what is evidence:


I will not attend to your definition unless you can succeed to the following requirements:

1. Right from the start mention what is evidence, is it a kite, is it a bird, is it a pot of gold, is it flying spaghetti monster, is it something that exists - otherwise don't bother to proffer your concept of evdience.

2. Limit your concept to not more than the maximum of 15 words.


If you cannot comply with these two reaquirements, then for my own insight that is evidence that you have no capacity for genuine honest intelligent productive thinking and writing.


Here is my definition of what is evidence:

"Evidence is anything at all existing leading man to know another thing existing." (13 words)

[ /quote]
.


You're ignoring me because I'm making some damn good points and you know it. I can keep reposting as long as I feel like it serves a purpose buddy.


- - - - - - - - - - -
edit on 8-9-2020 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)


= = = = = = = = = = =
Creationism vs Evolution debates (ad nauseam)

"I think therefore I am" is misleading. the true fruit of life is "I have done therefore I have been".

*Nemo judex in causa sua (Latin): literally, "no-one is judge in his own cause."

.

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: neutronflux

Where did the large animal come from? Eternal crap?

Where did god come from if everything needs a beginning and creator. And where did all the matter and mass of the universe come from.

Or is the universe just a bunch of matter in an endless state of flux? That has always existed?

You assume God follows the laws of physics , Of course that is not the case.

God does not need a beginning or an end , because God exist outside the realm of time .

Matter and Mass and there understanding are simple constructs of the human mind they in know way apply to God. We exist in a universe created by ...something maybe God I dunno but there is an endless realm of possibilities in and outside the multiverse.

Do not allow the Bible or the laws of Physics to limit your search for God , God is beyond all of those feeble ideas.

So is neutronflux disagreeing God exists? I can't seem to find his place in this conversation.

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

So god is now like Bigfoot? Bigfoot cannot be found, so Bigfoot is now morphed into an interdenominational being?

So god doesn’t need a beginning. And matter and mass are are constructs of the human mind, and god isn’t?

I see people getting killed by the matter and mass of bullets, knives, and cars. Seems matter and mass cause very real and permanent death. I think that’s is real as real gets.

What’s your proof of god. That God is beyond reality like Bigfoot?

You

You assume God follows the laws of physics , Of course that is not the case.

God does not need a beginning or an end , because God exist outside the realm of time .

How is that any difference than stating the mass and matter of the universe has always existed in a endless dance of flux.

If god always existed, then there was never a void. What if matter and mass have always existed, that too means there was never a void. And it doesn’t take a human construct of god.

Bigfoot is not omnipresent, Bigfoot is an animal found in the woods. I thought God would've told you by now.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance


Bigfoot is not omnipresent, Bigfoot is an animal found in the woods. I thought God would've told you by now.

How you know Bigfoot isn’t omnipresent, ever met one?

If Bigfoot is able to wink in and out of our reality as needed to be kept from being caught as the mythology evolves, why couldn’t Bigfoot be as omnipresent as god?

Is god present in a sinful heart? In hell? Why must god be invited into one’s life and heart if god is omnipresent?

a reply to: toktaylor

The very real thing about our universe is that in the beginning it was just a single hot mass. And this mass had all the properities with in it that have shaped everything that exist, and that have ever existed. This mass is actually the only thing God created. Time did the rest. Many christians think that God created all life. But God did not. God said let earth bring forth all living things.

If what we see is not perfect does not mather becasue we dont know the moral code. We dont know what perfect is because we dont have any referance to compare with.

Is there life on other planets that we can interact with... I personally doubt it. The only way that would be is if it was meant to be from the very beginning. The properties for it must have been present within the singular mass that formed our universe. If the properties for life on other planets vere not present there will never be any other life.
It wont mather what science stat... the properties for life must be present for there to be life.

a reply to: neutronflux

I see. I can't come in. There's nobody inside.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: neutronflux

I see. I can't come in. There's nobody inside.

If nobody’s inside, where’s the omnipresent god?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

So god is now like Bigfoot? Bigfoot cannot be found, so Bigfoot is now morphed into an interdenominational being?

So god doesn’t need a beginning. And matter and mass are are constructs of the human mind, and god isn’t?

I see people getting killed by the matter and mass of bullets, knives, and cars. Seems matter and mass cause very real and permanent death. I think that’s is real as real gets.

What’s your proof of god. That God is beyond reality like Bigfoot?

You

You assume God follows the laws of physics , Of course that is not the case.

God does not need a beginning or an end , because God exist outside the realm of time .

How is that any difference than stating the mass and matter of the universe has always existed in a endless dance of flux.

If god always existed, then there was never a void. What if matter and mass have always existed, that too means there was never a void. And it doesn’t take a human construct of god.

Your stuck mate on what other people have told you about God .

Your stuck on what you can understand, on what you think you know.

IF we were created by God and that's a big IF , then the complexities of God that created us are beyond us you have to understand this. You see it everyday in nature , in human choice , in the biology of the human body in every thing .

Stop listening to other people or what books say , try quieting your mind and creating a personal relationship with God. The best philosophizers will tell you that each persons journey to enlightenment or God is different, there is no set pattern .

If you choose not to see , you will not see simple as that.

Choose to see, there is intelligent design in everything an unseen hand .

Call it God, Nature, Energy , the Universe .

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

You

Your stuck mate on what other people have told you about God .

Which people and who?

Can you name them by name?

What books have I read? Can you list them?

Your stuck on what you can understand, on what you think you know.

What do I not understand. Quote one post from this thread that proves beyond a doubt god exists, and which god.

You

IF we were created by God and that's a big IF , then the complexities of God that created us are beyond us you have to understand this. You see it everyday in nature , in human choice , in the biology of the human body in every thing .

How is living creatures living off other living creatures through killing and parasitical relationships proof of god?

You listed items people also use to disprove god. Is that false?

Stop listening to other people or what books say , try quieting your mind and creating a personal relationship with God.

Might read through this thread to see what I actually believe. Vs me just being argumentative to a few that crap on people of faith.

Might start here...

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

You

I see that you all wrongly conflate God with religion, you can have religion without God.

And you can have God without religion.

Really?

I don’t think this post was about religion?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

The alternative is natural selection with the terms evil and good having absolutely no meaning.

Example: no god. Hitler was just practicing his dominance in a process of natural selection where the term evil has no meaning.

So the starting question is really, “do you believe an act can be good or evil, and why?”

First reply?

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Pachomius

perhaps you may want to start the convo?

I'll give ya a shove... No one can prove the existence of God to another...

Nothing about religion?

2nd reply?

originally posted by: seedofchucky
a reply to: Akragon

Well there is that 1 way . That cheat of theology . Messengers with miracles. Easily proves existence of god . Everyone watches dead man rise , or blind see , or handicap walk .. Its game over. Sign me up !~ But do we get that today ? noo.....we gotta play the pick the right cup game lol

Nothing about religion?

Fourth reply?

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
I think you'll need to define what you think God encompasses.

From my upbringing and personal philosophy, God existed before the universe began. He exists outside reality as we know it, can walk into and out of the universe the way an architect can walk in and out of a building he designed, has fundamental understanding and manipulation of the entirety of the universe because He designed it from the start, and thinks in ways beyond human comprehension.

So good luck with that.

What religion is this?

————————

There is nothing wrong with faith. But there is definitely something wrong with people that falsely claim people of faith are “religious” while using circular logic as “evidence”. All the while reposting the same dogmatic definition “religiously”

If you have faith. That is not evidence. There are people that also have faith there is no god, is that false. And don’t require a parent figure to bring the universe into existence.


Now. If you truly have faith. You should have a personal relationship with God that moved beyond evidence, and brings peace beyond understanding. That moves a person beyond debate of evidence, but testifying the glory of God. How many post in this thread actually glorify and honor God? And how God moves through people’s lives?

Does Pachomius posts for example actually show reverence for god? And honor and glorify god? They seem hollow and void of soul. With no acknowledgement there is evil in the world, and all that is good comes from God.

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

Faith is the belief in the absence of evidence. Is that false?