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Safety or Rights

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posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 02:00 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Our only recourse right now is to vote every single incumbent out of office as soon as they are up for reelection, no matter how much they have done for you, no matter how much you like them, they all must go. But, that is not realistic because the elite political class have so purposely polarized the citizenry, on purpose, that no one will vote for someone who is not in "their party".

The only other recourse is so terrible to think of, but I am afraid the elite political class may have pushed the citizenry to the brink and it may happen. I hope not, but if the protests that Governors are declaring illegal, increase in intensity, the worst just may happen.

I think Whitmer is being used and tricked into being the bellweather for how far fascism can go in the US before people rise up.




edit on 4/27/20 by The2Billies because: format



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 02:01 PM
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a reply to: Nyiah




BRAVO!!!!


Never has Ben Franklin been more appropriate:




"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."



"This Constitution…can only end in despotism…when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other."


...and here's one that not one of the Founding Fathers ever said:


Give me liberty, or keep me safe!!


I'll take my rights, thank you kindly. I'm capable, and have been for the better part of half a century, of taking care of myself, and helping care for my family and friends.

I neither want, nor need, Nanny-state hovering over me, like some surveillance drone.
edit on 4/27/2020 by seagull because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 02:05 PM
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originally posted by: Nyiah
Rights first and foremost. Your safety is worthless without rights to enjoy that safety under.


Indeed.

Sometimes maintaining "Rights" isn't safe either...




posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 02:10 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

Actually, I think you've got that exactly backwards. In my humble opinion, anyway.

Public lands, such as parks, can be closed to protect people should it warrant such actions. Private businesses should be allowed to make their own decisions, as it effects the livelihood of so many millions of people.

A closed park is an inconvenience, having no money to buy food or pay bills?? Catastrophic.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 02:32 PM
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a reply to: MykeNukem


I understand what you mean...


And I do understand what you mean as well. And this is where defining our terms is crucial. Specifically, how do we define "rights"?

In my case, our rights were declared in the Declaration of Independence, in accordance with the Lockean principles of natural rights endowed by "Nature and Nature's god," which are "self-evident." In other words, whatever I can do for myself and by myself, and/or with other consenting adults, is my right. Absolute, inalienable, and non-transferable.

We all have the right to take whatever precautions we feel appropriate and necessary for ourselves and by ourselves -- and/or with other consenting adults.

We do not have a right to live in a virus free world. We do not have the right to live forever. We do not have a right to force anyone to do anything to protect us from nature. We do not have the right to put other people in harm's way to protect ourselves.


edit on 27-4-2020 by Boadicea because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 02:41 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: MykeNukem


I understand what you mean...


And I do understand what you mean as well. And this is where defining our terms is crucial. Specifically, how do we define "rights"?

In my case, our rights were declared in the Declaration of Independence, in accordance with the Lockean principles of natural rights endowed by "Nature and Nature's god," which are "self-evident." In other words, whatever I can do for myself and by myself, and/or with other consenting adults, is my right. Absolute, inalienable, and non-transferable.

We all have the right to take whatever precautions we feel appropriate and necessary for ourselves and by ourselves -- and/or with other consenting adults.

We do not have a right to live in a virus free world. We do not have the right to live forever. We do not have a right to force anyone to do anything to protect us from nature. We do not have the right to put other people in harm's way to protect ourselves.



Absolutely.

Rights are not about Countries...but about Humanity...

Canada Chartered the Universal Declaration of Human Rights....but it doesn't mean they follow it....thank God I don't derive my Rights from them...

The Right to decide for ourselves with the information available to make an informed decision.

What worried me is we all know someone is going to say I have the Right to be Safe...even if it means locking you up...that worries me...

As always I enjoy your well rounded opinion on matters..


edit on 4/27/2020 by MykeNukem because: sp.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 04:22 PM
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Health holds a higher priority as you can't exercise your rights from the grave...

It's pretty simple.
Your rights are not set in stone. They are malleable and fluid. They extended only until they run into someone else's rights and vice versa. Life has no monetary value and should always take priority.

We are now approaching the point where continued lockdowns will have a higher death toll long term than the virus. Therefore the focus should be on getting back to work.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 04:28 PM
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a reply to: MykeNukem

That's what I said? I think.

I worked at a place, private company, where a sihk guy tried to refuse the use of a respirator due to his beard and faith. They told him he either abides or he needs to leave.
He went to court over it for human / charter rights violations, and lost big time.
All he needed to do was just take another position, and the company gave him one even after he sued.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 04:38 PM
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a reply to: JAY1980

Quick question:

If life always takes priority, are you pro-choice? What about that life?

And I'm sorry, but so long as you are socially distanced in your own house, what I do with myself is no concern of yours. You do not get to force me to stay in my home for your personal sense of security. If I got out and about and get ill, my disease is not jumping off to you unless you happen to out there right next to me, in which case, what happened to your high-minded social distancing?

As far as you getting ill from me, you still have the same risks you always did from picking it up from someone who visited a necessary place like the grocery store.

Remember, quarantine was not about eradicating the disease but about not overwhelming the medical system while we built herd immunity. The first flush of illness is over. It's time to let more of us out to continue building that pool to keep you safe.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 04:39 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

Yes precisely. If I have health and safety rules in my house. Your rights stop when you enter. Either follow my rules or get out.

That's what I am getting at. On public land it's a different story.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:25 PM
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originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Yes precisely. If I have health and safety rules in my house. Your rights stop when you enter. Either follow my rules or get out.

That's what I am getting at. On public land it's a different story.


In this case though, it has been government mandating how private owners of private land shall operate. That's what the shutdown is.

This would be the government telling you that what the rules in your house will be rather than you setting your rules for visitors to follow.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:32 PM
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a reply to: strongfp

You seem to be saying the government can't force businesses to reopen or people to loosen whatever they've established on their own property as safety protocols for COVID... I agree with that, BUT it works both ways. Similarly, the government should have ZERO say when private enterprises or private homes decide to take what the private citizens view as personally acceptable risks and remain open for business or entertaining.

I'm not sure if you and I are on the same page here or not. My page basically says "Government go shove your collective heads in the pool and breathe deeply... funeral services tomorrow, BYOB block party" and I somehow can't see you sharing that viewpoint alongside me.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:35 PM
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originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: MykeNukem

That's what I said? I think.

I worked at a place, private company, where a sihk guy tried to refuse the use of a respirator due to his beard and faith. They told him he either abides or he needs to leave.
He went to court over it for human / charter rights violations, and lost big time.
All he needed to do was just take another position, and the company gave him one even after he sued.


Yea but it's different when the Government says what you have to do with your Private Property.

That's what everyone is getting at.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:36 PM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: strongfp

You seem to be saying the government can't force businesses to reopen or people to loosen whatever they've established on their own property as safety protocols for COVID... I agree with that, BUT it works both ways. Similarly, the government should have ZERO say when private enterprises or private homes decide to take what the private citizens view as personally acceptable risks and remain open for business or entertaining.

I'm not sure if you and I are on the same page here or not. My page basically says "Government go shove your collective heads in the pool and breathe deeply... funeral services tomorrow, BYOB block party" and I somehow can't see you sharing that viewpoint alongside me.


What's the address? I'll be there


Another day, another line...




posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:44 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

This is why in my initial post I brought up states of emergency.

A private business is rather different compared to a private household or property where you are the only people living there and not employing anyone.

I think once employment comes into play, it becomes a different story.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: MykeNukem

Rights.

/drops mic



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:49 PM
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a reply to: burdman30ott6

No, I think I'm not being clear enough.

My reply to ketsuko might clear it up a bit.

But then again, I see where you are coming from. Government stepping on your rights to have people in let's say groups of five or more. This the hazy area, I somewhat agree and disagree. If, in this case the covid 19 pandemic were around, would you willfully host a massive party? Can government step in to break it up?



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:49 PM
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we are social animals. forced to adopt and accept an antisocial mindset and way of life. it's a tough call.



posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:50 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Government is telling you what you can do in your own home. Try having a party.




posted on Apr, 27 2020 @ 05:56 PM
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originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: burdman30ott6

No, I think I'm not being clear enough.

My reply to ketsuko might clear it up a bit.

But then again, I see where you are coming from. Government stepping on your rights to have people in let's say groups of five or more. This the hazy area, I somewhat agree and disagree. If, in this case the covid 19 pandemic were around, would you willfully host a massive party? Can government step in to break it up?


Personally? Probably not, but that said I do not believe it is anyone's business outside of those hosting the party and those invited. The Right that has become colloquially referred to as "your body, your choice" is very much at play here. Either we have the right over our own bodies or we do not... if we do not, then we are, in fact, living in a total illusion of freedom which is actually slavery with more steps.




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