Jesus said;- Forgive your brother when he repents

a reply to: Isurrender73
Gratitude for the Grace of God is supposed to be our motivation for imitating the Grace of God.

It isn't necessary that the imitation should try to improve on the original, and it' isn't desirable that an inaccurate imitation should give a false impression of the original.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: FyreByrd
Unconditional love requires unconditional forgiveness.

"Unconditional love" is not, in fact, the Christian premise, though I think the concept has been borrowed by the more sentimental side of modern Christianity

Jesus unconditionally loved mankind. I’m not sure how you don’t understand the Grace given you by his sacrifice. The entire premise of the NT is Jesus unconditional love of mankind. To fail to understand this is to be stuck in a state of judgement of mankind. Which is the exact opposite of Jesus message.

The entire reason Paul was accused of teaching that sin was permissible, to the point he was asked if sin further proved God’s Grace why not sin? Was because he was teaching of God’s unconditional love. How do we know it’s unconditional, because you can do nothing to deserve or obtain it. The requirement was met for you on the cross, even for those who do not believe. Jesus did not die for your sins, nor did he die for his followers sins, he died for the sins of all mankind.

But their is a warning when Jesus said do not temp God. We don’t understand the depth of God’s love and forgiveness. And we have no idea what his judgement will be like. But we have many warnings that it is better to not tempt God in such a way as to continue to sin once you know the truth.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Jesus/God are forgiving to those who request, we as Christians are not offered that option as we are not God

As far as I can see, my first two quoted passages in the OP are presenting us with exactly that plan. "if he says; I repent". "You should have forgiven your fellow-servant when he asked for it."

If Love obliged us to forgive unconditionally, then the God who is Love would be doing the same thing. The New Testament teaches that he doesn't.

The New Testament says God will judge mankind. Not you, not me, even Jesus said he did not come as a judge.

You are to love even your enemies. Tell me a verse that implies you are not to love someone? Jesus commanded us to love even our enemies, which implies we are to love everyone.

Jesus forgave even those who killed him when he was on the cross. What greater sin is there than to kill the sin of God? Your lack of love for your enemies, is out of your own judgment of their intentions.

You were instructed to love not judge. Judge not lest you be judged by the same measure.

Anyone who breaks even the smallest of the laws it’s as if they have broken all the laws.

No one is righteous, everyone has sinned.

By what measure do you want to be judged? Do you want to be measured by the judgement of sin or by God’s Grace?

I chose Grace. I do not condemn anyone, which is what you are doing by deciding who is worthy of your love and who is not. Even if you don’t perceive it as such.

a reply to: Isurrender73
There is a difference between loving and forgiving.
God loves, but he doesn't automatically forgive (the idea that God always forgives is non-Biblical).
God tells us to forgive, but he does not tell us to forgive automatically (just read again the passages quoted at the beginning of the opening post).
Therefore neither the need to imitate God, nor the need to do what God expects from us, would oblige us to forgive automatically.

a reply to: DISRAELI

God does not forgive us based on our repentance.

What part of you could do nothing to deserve Gods Grace do you not understand?

You are making your repentance more valuable than the sacrifice on the cross that happened 2000 years ago. Your sins were forgiven 2000 years ago not when you repented.

If God gave you Grace and you do not forgive others their sins than be weary that you will be judged by the same measure.

The measure of sin not the measure of Grace. Even as I type this I know I have no understanding of what this means when it comes to God’s forgiveness, but I do know that I want to be found covered in blood and not covered in sin.

You were forgiven before your repentance, but your heart is unable to acknowledge such until you repent in your heart. I forgive my brother in my heart, but I do not acknowledge it until he seeks it. In this way I am forgiving based on the pattern laid out for me on the Cross.

Any message that contradicts the Grace which was paid for on the cross is a message that waters down the cross. Therefore it must be rejected as a poor interpretation of things not quite understood by human knowledge.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
God does not forgive us based on our repentance.

"Repent and be baptised... for the forgiveness of your sins" Acts ch2 v38
"if we confess our sins, Gid is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins" 1 John ch1 v9

The Cross opens the door to forgiveness.
Repentance is the act of walking across the threshold.

a reply to: DISRAELI

You are making you and your ritual more important than the cross, or at least equal too it. You are implying that you can do something to earn Grace.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”

What you believe gives you some right to boast about your faith and contradicts easy to understand scripture.What I am saying does not contradict any message found in the Bible. Only your understanding of a complicated message.

I am saying that Jesus paid the price for your forgiveness without you doing anything.

The acknowledgment of this Grace leads you to repentance. But the forgiveness was always there for you. You can’t find the inner chamber where God dwells in your heart without repentance. But God dwells within you either way. Love is yours and it is a gift from God even before you acknowledge it and repent.

Knock and the door will be opened. The door that was always there to begin with. So that you may know that hat God always loved you, even when you were a sinner.

Grace is not earned through repentance and your ritual. Grace was earned on the cross by the only one found worthy to purchase it.

I can not agree with what I believe is an arrogant interpretation of scriptures where the believers boast that they alone are forgiven by God, and therefore are the only ones loved by God.

16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

I Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

These verses contradict your interpretation of Grace, but not mine. And I am not boasting that God loves me in anyway that he does not love everyone else. If I boast I only boast to acknowledge the love that God has for all of his creation, not just some who believe they are the elect.

I repent because I believe God loves me. I do not repent to earn God’s love. As there is nothing I could do to earn his Grace.

The cross is forgiveness, repentance is the acknowledgment of what was already yours and the union between you and God.

The cross is not merely a doorway but a promise to all mankind so that none can boast when they acknowledge it and unite with God in Love.

a reply to: Isurrender73
Faith is not a way of "earning" grace.
The same Paul who told his readers they could not earn their salvation also told them that Faith was essential. He prociams Faith as the opposite of trying to earn by works.
If Faith is a form of "earning", then Paul would be contradicting himself. And he isn't.

As for the question of Love, I just need to re-post what I wrote earlier;

There is a difference between loving and forgiving.
God loves, but he doesn't automatically forgive (the idea that God always forgives is non-Biblical).
God tells us to forgive, but he does not tell us to forgive automatically (just read again the passages quoted at the beginning of the opening post).
Therefore neither the need to imitate God, nor the need to do what God expects from us, would oblige us to forgive automatically.

a reply to: DISRAELI

What I’ve been trying to say in simpler terms.

God forgives you but not those who believe differently than you. Because you believe that’s what the book says. You have faith that what you believe has called you into a superior position than those without faith.

I have faith that I would like to share with the world that shows them they are already in the same position as me, if they could only hear what I hear, they would see what I see. Which is God’s Love and Forgiveness, which I believe is Grace, that is already theirs

Not because they are not already there but because they simply don’t perceive it yet.

There is a profound difference in these two philosophies. One that empowers believers, the other gives all the power to God alone.

I prefer to believe that I am nothing but what God alone has decided. That even my faith is nothing except what God has given to me out of his Grace, even though I could never deserve to have it. Everything I have is a gift from him. He has molded something useless into something useful, for his purpose. Not because of anything I did but because it was his will to do so.

a reply to: Isurrender73
We seem to be getting away from the subject of repentance.
The Hebrew word translated as "repentance" means "turning round".
The Greek word translated "repentance" means "changing the mind".
In other words, there needs to be a change in attitude, a willingness to "turn back" to God.
When Jesus says, when Peter says, when Paul says, that people need to "repent" in orderto be forgiven, that's what they're talking about. And there's no getting round the fact that they all DO attach this condition.

My argument has been that by analogy, and by specific New Testament statements, our forgiveness of our brethren is the expected response to a similar "change of attitude" on their own part.

The question of "what people believe" hasn't been part of my argument. I don't know why you brought it in. The issue is about "repentance", which is a change of mind, a turning round.

a reply to: DISRAELI

The subject is about what you believe it takes to be forgiven by God. And if we are following God’s ways how we should forgive others.

In my argument I have, possibly poorly, tried to lay out a definition of Grace. I believe that Grace is God’s love and forgiveness. That Grace is a gift given to all mankind through the power of the cross.

I personally don’t believe it’s possible to separate love and forgiveness. For if you love one you also forgive them.

A human example.

There is no sin on earth that my daughter could commit that I would not forgive her for because I love her unconditionally. To me this is how God’s Grace works with his children.

My daughter may do something to harm me or herself and she may stay away from me out of shame, fear or ignorance. But when she asks for forgiveness I give it to her.

But I didn’t give her that forgiveness when I spoke it, I chose to love and forgive her unconditionally the day she was born. But she could not feel my love and forgiveness until she repented for her actions.

God forgave everyone all their sins 2000 years ago, knowing that everyone would be born and everyone would sin. But people live in shame, fear and ignorance. When anyone acknowledges God’s Grace they are compelled by that acknowledgment to repentance.

If Grace is not God’s love and forgiveness what is it?

Did Jesus promise God’s Grace to all mankind through the cross? And if he did purchase Grace with his blood for all of mankind than who doesn’t have Grace?

The key question is what do you believe Grace is? Because I don’t think it’s possible to have this debate without a clear understanding of Grace. Because I think your understanding of forgiveness is contradictory to Grace.

So... I suppose I can agree with the OP premise because:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

What does this imply, though? Would anything other than longsuffering and hoping for the transgressor’s repentance (eta: before it’s too late) be acceptable?



(Isurrender: doesn’t the following say that faith is necessary? “He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already...” from John 3:18.)

Forgiving those that wrong us and our family's or friend's can be very hard indeed, it requires a level of self mastery over our own anger and fear, trusting them would be foolish but choosing not to hate them and to forgive, not to wish them harm and to treat them fairly and decently is probably enough.
However if there repentance is genuine then perhaps they can be more trustworthy then even those that have not done wrong for they can indeed have learned a lesson in themselves about what doing wrong to other's really mean's, there repentance of that is a sign of a developed soul.

That said Jesus said to forgive even our enemy's and that is hard for us as we have a natural defensive reaction to them, hatred is perhaps one expression of that but Jesus said to Love our enemy's as well.

Forgiveness of those that hate us is hard, of those that hurt us is hard and of those that hurt those we care about and love even harder - forgiveness of those that betray our trust and friendship or family bond's can be even harder but when we look at how small it is compared to the price the Lord paid for us it is not really such a big thing he ask's of us and after all he even asked the father to forgive those that had crucified him for they knew not what they were doing.

Also in the lord's prayer his word's remind us though we may forget to acknowledge those word's when we repeat it as the word's become habit rather than meaning through mindless repetition - "Forgive us our sin's as we forgive those that have sinned against us" which of course also expresses the same sentiment from our lord he showed when facing the crowd whom were to stone the woman and challenged them to let him that is without sin cast the first stone, they were all sinful in there way's and knew it and he shamed them into dropping there stone's.

He set the example we are supposed to try at least to emulate, forgiving our enemy's, it is a hard path indeed to follow and do we really forgive, it is hard indeed to do so but it is little compared to the burden he carries for us.

a reply to: japhrimu

Believe what?
Condemned how?

What was Jesus teaching that we needed to believe?

We need to believe in God’s Grace, that Jesus died on the cross to forgive us our sins.

If you don’t believe in Grace and Forgiveness than you would indeed be condemned to live in fear and sin.

The church has told us this verse means condemned to hell, which is a contradiction to the message Jesus poured his blood out for.

I don’t agree with the church. I think the verse was laying out a psychological fact about faith in the message of Jesus.

To live a life in fear of God’s judgement is indeed condemnation. To live without Grace is to live without the love of God in your heart. To live in judgement of others is to live divided.

The one who believes is truly saved and unified with God. The one who does not believe lives opposed to God and devided from him in condemnation. There needs to be no further after-life condemnation for this verse to be true and God’s Grace/Love to be unconditional.

a reply to: LABTECH767

"Forgive us our sin's as we forgive those that have sinned against us"

No if's, buts or excuses. Forgive those that have sinned against us or carry the burden of "not forgiving".

One such test, I have faced, is a person that I trusted, that stole most of my wealth. In forgiving that person in my heart I felt a great burden lift from me. I had to ask myself why????

I feel that it comes down to worldly pearls. If we love worldly pearls moreso than our neighbor then our love is limited by earthlly desires. Spritual love has no such limitations. Explaining why its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. We must turn away from all earthly desires (egoism) to empathy (spiritualism) before we can pass the gate. Sell everything one has to purchase the pearl of great value.

Of cause, most of us want our cake and eat it too. The snake will convince us, its not so, by looking up a smorgasbord of contradictory scripture to reinforce our false beliefs.

But we won't have the last word...

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

a reply to: Isurrender73

Believe in Jesus and His work, the Gospel. 1 Cor 15

Condemned by sin to what in Rev is called the second death. Rev 21:8 (eta to keep in line with thread: There’s a list of categories of sinners that will be condemned to the second death, so best I can tell, if anybody is any of those, they should, or need to, repent!)

John 3:16 says ...that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (This doesn’t appear to be psychology.)

Am I missing, gotten wrong, or misunderstood something?
I am still a new Christian. I also miss others’ points sometimes.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
I personally don’t believe it’s possible to separate love and forgiveness. For if you love one you also forgive them.

The New Testament says thst GOD separates love and forgiveness. That is, he is Love, and yet he does not forgive everybody. There is a condition of repentance. It says so in all the texts that I've been quoting.

In fact you are proving me right in everything I said in the last couple of paragraphs of the OP. I suggested that the expectation of "automatic forgiveness" from Christians was a symptom of expecting "automatic forgiveness" from God.

You want to tell me that the Biblical God loves "uncondtionally." I must tell you that this is not true. I can challenge you to find any text in either Testament that says so.
"Unconditonal love" is a modern slogan which has come out of the modern world's leaning towarsd sentimentality. "I will beliece this because it's nice."

If Grace is not God’s love and forgiveness what is it?

Grace is God's love and the offer of forgiveness to anyone who repents.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Maybe you should read the Lord’s Prayer a few times.

Forgiving others is a response to being forgiven. Never based on them asking for it.

Jesus on the Cross, forgive them father for they know not what they do. Did they ask for forgiveness? Did they repent for killing the Son of God? No, but he forgave them anyway.

You are a typical Christian theologian who sits in your high place because you believe you have done something special in God’s eyes.

But I am done trying to convince you.

originally posted by: Isurrender73
Maybe you should read the Lord’s Prayer a few times.

Forgiving others is a response to being forgiven. Never based on them asking for it.

You need to read the very first passage quoted in the opening post. Go on, what does it say?
I read the WHOLE of the New Testament.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."