Social Distancing and Unintended Consequences

originally posted by: JinMI
a reply to: chr0naut

12.29 of known infected.

I'm not saying it isn't serious or precautions shouldn't be taken.

I'm saying you and the media cant tout these numbers as fact.

All measurements have a margin of error.

Do you think that the CDC, WHO and other epidemiological groups' estimates are ALL invalid? Because there is close agreement between them and numerous alternate scientific sources.

a reply to: chr0naut

Our knowledge is less than perfect, but none the less, we have these figures to work with.

Working with garbage only makes one a garbageman.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: chr0naut

Our knowledge is less than perfect, but none the less, we have these figures to work with.

Working with garbage only makes one a garbageman.

TheRedneck

How myopic a view.

One mans garbage is another's fusion powered Delorean's fuel.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: edaced4

So you consider these items to be essential??

Yes, I do.

How do you know I don't need these items to repair my home? If you read the order (why does no one have the strength to click a mouse button?), you will see that these products are specified as an "essential product." If you think they are not, perhaps you should send Governor Kay Ivey a message; I already have and the witch didn't' respond. I'm sure she will come election time, though. I just doubt by then I will respond to her.

It's not the store's fault that these people weren't practicing "social distancing".

I never said it was. However, it should be obvious that people when in line outside are not going to leave a 6 foot space between them and the person in front of them, because if they do someone else will jump ahead of them.

My point is that the order creates a line by necessity and thus creates a condition that is antithetical to social distancing which it intends to promote.

For this I do apologize.

Spare me. If all you can see are the politically correct parts, you're too blind to apologize. And I will get what I need tomorrow, by curbside delivery thanks to the store recognizing the problem, without having to get out of my car. I'm grateful to the store for that service. As a matter of fact, I may continue to use it even if/when the national insanity brings it's bearing on the next crisis to come down the pike.

I am curious, though: if you don't think the products in your store should be "essential," why do you work there when you should be home self-isolating?

TheRedneck

Well, you DID say in your OP

Nothing major... some nails, screws, and a few lag bolts, maybe a new extension cord. Something to do while I am waiting this idiocy out

So how is “nothing major” now essential?

Just playing Devil’s Advocate.

Our Home Depot’s are all marked inside and out with yellow X’s telling you where to stand. They’re about 75% effective as I still had to ask someone to step back a couple times after I literally felt his breath on my back. I would have asked him to stand back under normal conditions because the guy was simply too close to me and I’m too cautious to allow someone close enough to quickly grab my wallet or the P320 I carry. I’ve had to go there several times this week for work before our Ma and Pa shop re-opened, where I prefer to go. Thankfully, they re-opened on the first after setting up their store to protect the employees a little better.

Look, sh!t sucks right now. No one is really having an easier time than another. Home Depot itself has caused my work days to go from 8 hours to 10 each day I’ve had to go. (I’m salaried, so it’s just more time I’m spending exposed to be when I’d rather be in my shop/office or home) And I’ve expressed this in other threads, but while I’m EXTREMELY thankful to still be working right now, it’s a catch 22 at times. I’m taking this thing seriously. I’m extremely healthy and statistically, I’d blast right through an infection, but why risk it and I’d feel like dogsh!t for the rest of my life if I knew I somehow knew I passed it on to someone else. I have to meet 5-10 people a day that seem hellbent on catching or spreading this thing. Thursday I had to go clear out homeless people who broke into one of our vacant properties and that’s not particularly fun even when we’re not in a pandemic because they almost always want to fight and we’ve been spit on and had sh!t thrown at us before just so we can go in and clean up their needles, booze bottles and piss off the floor. There’s no guarantee that I won’t catch the virus and bring it home to my wife, who doesn’t have the same immune system I do.

Just pausing here, I’m watching Trump’s address from earlier today and someone brought up Biden’s tweet, I just laughed my ass off at Trump’s response, “He’s not watching and if he is, he doesn’t understand what he’s watching.”. I don’t like Trump but I have to agree with him there!

Anywho, life is very much on hold right now. None of us have ever experienced a situation like this before and we all need to put on our big boy pants, STFU and deal with it. I certainly feel for those who are dying alone or families who cannot be with their loved ones when they pass, that’s gut wrenching and I do know what that’s like as I couldn’t be with my stepfather when he passed. I flew up the week before for his surgery and we all expected to celebrate the removal of his cancer, but there were so many complications during the surgery they had to stop. I took a few extra days before I had to return to work and things only got worse, he was literally sh!tting out his mouth the last days of his life and I never got to say goodbye. My heart goes out to those experiencing the same.

The quicker everyone chills out, stops playing the badass “IDGAF, I’m living my life like normal” like reckless idiots, the quicker we can get back to re-building what’s been broken. If you’re not satisfied with that, go get all the tough guys together and march on up to your city buildings with all your guns and do what all the keyboard warriors on here have been threatening to do every time they feel ‘Muh freedom’ is threatened. It’ll at least make for a different news story. Of course, we all know that’s all just BS and it won’t happen, so I suggested going back to my previous suggestion, deal with it.

a reply to: Drucifer

So how is “nothing major” now essential?

I explained that above.

Your point is well-taken; we all have to live through this trying time. However, I don't consider blind acceptance of whatever someone "in authority" comes up with as conducive to getting through such trying times. As I point out in the OP, these regulations have three unintended consequences: creating a condition which negates any social distancing by placing people in a line outside without any guidance; closing smaller businesses and thereby intensifying the problem above; preventing people from getting tested by making their life miserable if the result is positive, and thereby reducing what we know about this illness.

The biggest enemy we have to face is not some virus... it is the fear and panic which has gripped our society and our leaders. One cannot defeat fear with more fear, nor with ignorance. One defeats fear by knowing what we are facing and trusting each other.

Will there be those whom you mention? Sure... they have always existed and they will always exist. It's just the way things are. But they are the exception as long as the situation is made clear. Situations which create the opposite of their intention do not clarify anything and lead to people deciding that there is no problem. It behooves all of us to point out inconsistencies and contradictory concepts so we can defeat this WuFlu with understanding. And that's all I am doing: pointing out where official policy is poorly considered and actually hurts the situation.

The binary thinker will assume that I am either ignoring the problem completely or I must adhere to every cockamamie notion that some politician dreams up. The truth is that we can admit that yes, the WuFlu is a problem we must address, a problem that can kill those at high risk, overwhelm our medical facilities, and sweep through our population almost unchecked; yet we can also say that this policy is not doing what it should and that policy is unworkable and will lead to other problems in addition to the virus.

Don't be the binary thinker.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: BoscoMoney

This social distancing thing aint hard when you've been doing it for a good portion of your life.

Yeah, I was a hermit back when hermits weren't cool, myself.

TheRedneck

Lol, I was going to say, I'm glad I'm a hermit that lives on crumbs..

Homebrew, after the alcohol apocalypse has rendered me a cripple, however..
Still, when I hear your words... I see that I'm not so bad, except for unwise choices..

Always a hand..

a reply to: TheRedneck

I can't stand in line either....or for that matter, even walk through a large grocery store without losing sensation and control of my legs (neuroclaudication). I do curbside pickup. I bought one of those rollators with a seat in case I absolutely had to stand in line or walk somewhere, figuring I could always take a break and sit until the thing passed. (It always does. It's just a question of getting off my feet and waiting.)

Anyway, I wonder if you don't have one already, maybe get something like that so you could actually sit in line? Just a thought. I hate these physical handicaps for both myself and others.

My empathy on dealing with this. And, btw, I think your logic is spot on regarding how stupid it is (long lines with more time spent bunched up in them than you'd experience in the store naturally).

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: TheRedneck

This may not be what you were expecting, but I learned of a very sad situation today. One young man (that serves with my nephew) and his brothers are now not only grieving their mother, but because of "social distancing" and "self-isolating" instructions they followed, she died alone and afraid. She asked for someone to stay with her, but because one has kids and the other works with the public, they did not want to expose her to anything. They did not even see her for her birthday last month although she asked them to come "just this once". They told her it was for her own good.

They found out she was sick Thursday morning. Sometime Friday she passed away in her home. She was found by a neighbor.

They thought they were doing the right thing. They thought that they could make up for it next month on Mother's Day. They thought they were protecting her, and now they feel they abandoned her. I'll bet she felt abandoned too.

My birthday's next week. My kids are "social distancing" and insisting that I "self-isolate" also... for "my own good." I'm not alone of course. I have my husband. I wasn't expecting anything of my birthday anyway, but this sure puts an extra damper on it!

This depressed the 5hit out of me 😞

Not a complaint, story's like this need to be heard.

I feel people here in the UK are already loosening up on social distancing. We are so over entitled/privileged 😒

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Boadicea

My son is saying the exact same thing to me... my daughter called and asked if I was self-isolating, to which I replied "No more than usual." I'm far less worried about this WuFlu than I am the stoopid virus which is apparently much more contagious and far more permanent than WuFlu ever dreamed of.

Yes, I'm thinking there are many of us in this same position.

Long story short: she's coming; he's not... at least not until "this blows over." which it looks like could be never. I tried to explain to him that he has never seen me knocked down by any virus or sickness (the heart stuff was just me trying desperately to kill myself), and that sooner or later everyone would be exposed... but he doesn't listen to the old man any more.

Me too. Well, similar at least. I've had some scares, but I'm still here. We've all had some scares! That's life. That's living. They just don't see it the same.

That story breaks my heart, but at least I know I'm not going anywhere for a while. I can take solace in that.

TheRedneck

It's really hit my heart too. But I'm so glad you're not going anywhere

Here's to all the old (and young) geezers like ourselves:

originally posted by: FinallyAwake

This depressed the 5hit out of me 😞

Not a complaint, story's like this need to be heard.

I feel people here in the UK are already loosening up on social distancing. We are so over entitled/privileged 😒

I'm all for taking reasonable precautions for reasonable risks, but I fear in the process we are losing our humanity. We aren't taking care of each other, we're shutting each other out. That's just not reasonable. There has to be a better way.

I kinda wondered if I shouldn't have mentioned it. But I think you're right. We need to know what we're doing -- no matter how well intentioned.

a reply to: caterpillage

It’s not just Burger King, my local Post Office does the same thing, but with a plastic sheet across the wall opening, and 6 foot spacing duct tape oN the floor for customers.This is the most ridiculous protocol I’ve ever seen.

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: FinallyAwake

This depressed the 5hit out of me 😞

Not a complaint, story's like this need to be heard.

I feel people here in the UK are already loosening up on social distancing. We are so over entitled/privileged 😒

I'm all for taking reasonable precautions for reasonable risks, but I fear in the process we are losing our humanity. We aren't taking care of each other, we're shutting each other out. That's just not reasonable. There has to be a better way.

I kinda wondered if I shouldn't have mentioned it. But I think you're right. We need to know what we're doing -- no matter how well intentioned.

Agreed, I feel we (UK) need to be tightening up even more on social distancing rules/laws, we haven't even reached the top of the curve yet.

🤔

a reply to: edaced4

It goes along with how a business has to, in the wintertime, make sure that the sidewalk isn't icy, to avoid a lawsuit

If the sidewalk is owned by the city or county , in most cases they are the liable group.
So , what were you saying again ?

originally posted by: FinallyAwake

Agreed, I feel we (UK) need to be tightening up even more on social distancing rules/laws, we haven't even reached the top of the curve yet.

🤔

I've been thinking about this quite a bit, trying to figure out a better way. I tend to think the social distancing is important, especially on a grand scale. So, for example, large festivals and concerts and other celebrations, should most definitely be restricted. Especially with the reports that viral load is a factor in developing complications. In other words, if I am exposed via one infected person, I will (theoretically) have a mild case. If I'm exposed to 100 infected persons, the viral load will more likely result in serious complications.

On the other hand, I'm not happy with the self-isolation, especially for the elderly and vulnerable. More than ever, I'm likening it to solitary confinement (ETA: in prison), which has been deemed literal torture. Obviously, different background circumstances, but the end result is the same. Perhaps worse for the elderly and vulnerable, who haven't done anything wrong to deserve to be punished. I would encourage families and friends to either take in the elderly and vulnerable who are alone, where folks can keep an eye on each other and take care of one another.

I wonder how much depression and feeling abandoned and forsaken impact the overall health of the elderly and vulnerable, thus making them even more susceptible to worst case scenarios. I wonder how many are simply unable to take care of themselves if/when they do become sick, and develop complications. I wonder how much being stuck inside, without the health benefits of sun and fresh air, contribute to developing serious complications.

I don't think we're taking reasonable precautions for reasonable risks. I feel more like we're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

originally posted by: continuousThunder
man all this high strung hyperbole makes you look so damn bad.
all these gotchas are just so contrary and contrived!
burn down with your house? do you really, honestly think that's the intention?
do you genuinely think there's no way to work out individual accomodations for people's needs?

these orders are generalities designed to minimise spread, in an ad hoc setting where none of us have done this before.
but no, of course, MUH FREEDUM is so much more important than any sort of group effort, heaven forfend that the way of life you've led these past decades should be put out one iota. constitution.

Don't you know individual needs no longer count.

Look at China a communist country moving toward socialism.

The US is moving toward socialism. This is clear with the new generation of politicians who are so very vocal. The principal of socialism is what is best for the collective, for the majority of society. One unintended consequence is the wholesale abandonment of the individual and their needs in favor of collectivism, socialism and even a little communism thrown in.

As for the individual and individual needs, that is passe and so very old fashioned, only crotchety old conservatives believe in that anymore. Remember: The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few. We've been collectively taught that for at least 40 years.

Socialism/Communism has imposed draconian measures on individuals to the point of camps and even death to keep society as a whole ideologically clean and healthy in the past and the future will be no exception. Our new lockdown rules under the constitution are draconian and keep individuals alone, afraid, and isolated for the good of the greater society. This will lead to some very unpleasant unintended consequences.

It is fascinating how most are accepting it.

When it was a self-isolate suggestion I was good with that,we have been for our own safety.

But the lockdown rules state by state show how socialist our nation has become and how much we as a nation accept the basic tenets of socialism, that force can be used (heavy fines/jail) to make individuals do what is good for society with little to no regard for individuals left in mentally or physically dangerous situations.

I'm actually ok with quarantining hot spot areas, to keep people within the boundaries of say the county of New York and counties that border it for health reasons. I'm not ok with locking down rural Alabama where people can be living miles from the nearest person or even store and there are few to no cases. I get it with quarantine. I get it that lockdown slows the spread so hospitals can handle the people who might die without care. But in a nation like ours, outside of hot spots, self-isolate suggestions keeps people mentally healthier, and to allow some personal freedom and choice.

Eventually nearly everyone will get it, it is inevitable because we can't keep this up for the 18 months to 2 years to make a vaccine.

Even keeping this up for 6 months will totally and completely destroy the nation, and that is how long it will take to develop drugs that help cure it. We need to accept the fact that we have a choice.

Lock everyone in, destroy the fabric of the nation, destroy people's faith in the government, and in each other. Of course, this does allow for a total rewrite of the nation into the collectivist socialism of what is best for society and not the individual, we will have become so addicted to by that time. This is a great unintended consequence, perhaps the greatest one of all, abandonment of individual needs for socialism.

Lock everyone in OR accept that every WILL be exposed eventually as in all other great pandemics and let people decide for themselves to take the risk or to self-isolate for 18-24 months.

The constitution is part and parcel of the really old fashioned, out of date, way too caring about individual rights for today's youth and for one of our major political parties. Get used to it, this is one way our society will be changed forever. Conform to society or else, can't conform, too bad, what is best for the greater good reigns supreme over the needs of any individual or small groups of individuals.

This plus social distancing - the US is doing it for more than 6 weeks.

It only takes 6 weeks to establish new long lasting habits.

We are learning to fear our neighbor, for they may carry disease that may kill us, no matter how friendly and nice they look.

Add this to the already politically generated hatred/loathing of anyone who disagrees with you politically and the inability of our politicians to get along or work cooperatively on even a national crises anymore.

The unintended consequences is a deep distrust of everyone around us, a hatred for those who disagree with us politically, and ingraining in people an inability to work with others on a trusting level.

a reply to: TheRedneck

What planer did you buy? I am thinking of getting one in the future. I was looking at the Dewalt.

Back on topic. I was at Sams club yesterday and it was like Black Friday. The thing that cracked me up, it was 20 degrees out. People standing in line like it was going to be a mad rush. Freezing jumping around trying to stay warm. I just sat in the truck listening to music. The line was long but it was because of the 6-foot rule. I ended up there early because they had their times wrong on the website.
It sure didn't take people long to make those nice little pretty round signs for the floor.

a reply to: Boadicea

On the other hand, I'm not happy with the self-isolation, especially for the elderly and vulnerable. More than ever, I'm likening it to solitary confinement (ETA: in prison), which has been deemed literal torture. Obviously, different background circumstances, but the end result is the same. Perhaps worse for the elderly and vulnerable, who haven't done anything wrong to deserve to be punished. I would encourage families and friends to either take in the elderly and vulnerable who are alone, where folks can keep an eye on each other and take care of one another.

I thought about this the other day as well, the effects on the elderly/alone. We used to, at work and community, be able to visit and sort of oversee the goings on in the nursing homes. The backstory for me is that I believe wholeheartedly that the local nursing home that my Mother was in for rehab attributed to her death and I was there every day, monitoring her care and she still succumbed to what I believe to be negligence. Who is overseeing things now? I don't know what the answer is, but I am concerned about what could be taking place behind those closed/locked doors. Do I think that they should be wide open? I don't really, but I do know that when they were, there were still incidents of alleged abuse and neglect so I can only imagine that there could be an increase of that with everyone stressed and worried.
It is good that our local hospital is allowing one support person in with our clients (intellectually and developmentally disabled folks) if they are hospitalized or seeking treatment at the ER.

Also, I really don't understand why the parks are closed. We hike, camp, frequent the parks and other areas and spend a lot of time outside. I have never been and there be folks shoulder to shoulder. We have passed folks on trails, not even as close as we are to other people in the grocery store, and not been closer than 6 feet in some instances. I realize the last paragraph has nothing to do with the OP's topic!

Cool story, and sorry you personally had such a hard time. I've encountered similar.

But unintended consequences as opposed to intended ones? Really?

Meeting all the needs of millions upon millions of people, all with varying degrees of physical and mental limitations and personal situations, isn't an easy thing to cater to. Is there inconvenience, particularly for those with underlying conditions and unique circumstances? Sure. I'd be surprised if there wasn't.

However, people with good intentions are trying to figure out how to best keep things running as efficiently as possible for as many as possible in these unique and trying times.

It's not as if they're getting a lot of clear and specific guidance, and even where there is guidance, it's ever changing, so they have to adapt and be flexible. It's not as if anyone is trying to make things difficult.

Quite the contrary, we see examples of places of business coming up with creative solutions and giving consideration to groups like the elderly, by allowing them to shop early, as one example. Or by ramping up preordering and prepaying with curbside service as another. Things many businesses have never had to do before.

They are learning by trial and error, and I, for one, am grateful that they're trying at all because it benefits everyone.

Maybe more cooperation all around, more sharing of ideas that are working, more polite expression of personal concerns, and less bitching might make it easier for all of us to get through this.

a reply to: TNMockingbird

Yes! Another very good example of how we're abandoning our elders and vulnerable -- thank you for adding it.

So many evil things happen in nursing homes as it is, under the best of circumstances. We just had a case not long ago where a mentally incompetent woman in a nursing home was found to be pregnant. How could that even happen???

And with nursing homes now closed to all visitors, with staff overworked and overwhelmed, it's horrifying to think what could be happening. And the children and other loved ones are prevented by law from even being in a position to know, much less report it or stop it themselves.

But the Nanny State and Big Brother will take care of everyone, right?

originally posted by: GravitySucks

However, people with good intentions are trying to figure out how to best keep things running as efficiently as possible for as many as possible in these unique and trying times.

It's not as if they're getting a lot of clear and specific guidance, and even where there is guidance, it's ever changing, so they have to adapt and be flexible. It's not as if anyone is trying to make things difficult.


Maybe more cooperation all around, more sharing of ideas that are working, more polite expression of personal concerns, and less bitching might make it easier for all of us to get through this.

But, we are being taught through forced lockdowns to distrust everyone around us.

We are being taught that individual needs are irrelevant, what is most important is the collective.

We are being taught NOT to work together, for that spreads disease.

We are being taught that everyone we see, even people we work with or were acquaintances with are a potential danger to our very lives.

At least with self-isolate suggestions people could choose, now the choice is removed. Distrust everyone is the mantra of the day.

How the heck can we work together when we aren't allowed within 6 feet of anyone who doesn't live in our household. That is totally impossible.

How on earth can we work together when even our politicians are fighting and working against each other, absolutely every single day on every single issue, with a media on both sides that promotes hatred/loathing for your fellow human being who may hold a different ideology than you.

The unintended consequence is a deepening distrust of one's fellow man and teaching people NOT to work together, but to follow the dictates of a government that is daily teaching us to hate and to not cooperate with anyone - i.e. to trust no one and working together is practically forbidden.