Both parties promised change and anti establishment candidates and blew it. Let's be honest.

Everyone agreed the age of establishment politicians and their parties were bringing the country down. Very few dispute that, and we see the popularity with those who proclaim to be for extreme change.

We had Obama who won in a very surprising fashion with his hope and change platform. He claimed he was going to stop the endless wars, and focus on the country. He obviously turned out to be a shill, and in many ways worse than those before him because of how he was able to pull off his one up policies while people praised him. It was dis-gus-tang.

Afterwards, a lot of people woke up, even on the left. Bernie Sanders came out of the woodworks with a far left policy that bucked against establishment dems. Debate about whether his policies are good or bad (socialism bad, we all get it)... His voting record was consistent for the most part with what he claimed he was for, and did appear to be anti establishment (though he would give the feds a different kind of power IMO)... Bernie got screwed and the Dems got their gal, and she would play ball. I'd argue he had more support than Hillary, and even if there was an argument the numbers were comparable, he certainly had more passionate support than her.

On the opposing side in 2016 we had Trump. He claimed to be fresh, new, hope and change. He prided himself as the antithesis to the Obama administration many of us had such a bad taste in our mouths for.

So I think we can all agree, the country was tired of it... And more specifically, tired of the two parties.

Well, here we are. Wars still going, nation still bleeding money and compounding debt. On top of that now, we have at the very least 2 trillion in new spending passed, 2 trillion in the works... I doubt it stops there.

What has truly been changed through all of those in our favor? I don't want breadcrumbs, I want big meaningful change that you all have seen through the so called anti-establishment candidates. Maybe you'll be able to think of a few minor wins here or there, but nothing that reverses the absolute destruction we saw on our nation like endless wars, patriot act, bailouts ect.

I think it's time we call it what it is. If there is any chance at fixing this nation, I think it's time to admit we have a problem. And that problem is the absolute dogma that exists whether knowing or unknowingly to support a party because it's "slightly better" than the other. They both will blow your money, put us in debt, and take our rights little by little.

The points on how you're saving the country from the other party are moot. You all got your chances at redemption with your revolutionary candidates Obama and Trump. It's all out in the open now, and the jig is up.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Yeah. They were lying. They always lie. Because they are liars.

I think it's time we call it what it is. If there is any chance at fixing this nation, I think it's time to admit we have a problem. And that problem is the absolute dogma that exists whether knowing or unknowingly to support a party because it's "slightly better" than the other. They both will blow your money, put us in debt, and take our rights little by little.

Because "they" are a construct; a fiction created to give human beings the thrill of the only form of political engagement most people will ever know: picking the right team to root for.

Worse yet, see my sig.

Trump is as anti establishment as they come.

Fact

originally posted by: Aallanon
Trump is as anti establishment as they come.

Fact

Not a high bar coming into it... But I personally haven't seen much about him being anti-establishment. He says some funny buzzwordy stuff that makes him appear to be bucking the system, but not much has materialized.

The fed is currently pumping trillions into the market, and some of that is by buying corporate bonds that are otherwise garbage. A lot of that specific effort is going to be headed by Black Rock, who also has a business model of peddling said corporate bond packages. Wonder how they decide to go about it.

Our economic system got addicted to federal money, not being able to weather a large event much less balance their own books out of debt with liquidity. So here we are. The very thing everyone bitched about with Obama is being done on a larger, and in some ways worse scale.

I can't argue your points, and I'm sure most Americans want our entire political system cleaned up. The problem is, how the heck can we ever vote for anything but establishment when it takes millions to campaign for any office?

There are a few candidates who run for offices at a state level on a shoe string budget; they don't win against the establishment.

a reply to: nugget1

I can't argue your points, and I'm sure most Americans want our entire political system cleaned up. The problem is, how the heck can we ever vote for anything but establishment when it takes millions to campaign for any office?

Campaign finance reform.

I don't see how we can see meaningful change if it's been proven time and again we have an oligarchy.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

let’s be totally honest.

If Obama was a white man or woman he would not have ever been close to the White House with his lack of experience.

He was an affirmative action president.
He also divided the country.

Trump was then elected because he was the total opposite.
Not a career politician.

Everyone has an opinion on both of those men and it’s really irrelevant what that opinion is but you have to admit the latter is the result of the former.


Both parties are going to need to find a candidate in 2024.. be afraid, very afraid.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Just don't look at the wizard behind the curtain. He has a puppet on his left hand and a puppet on his right hand.

Lucky us. We get a choice!

a reply to: CriticalStinker

What has truly been changed through all of those in our favor?

Nothing. All that’s happened is that we’re at each others throats more than ever. Which perpetuates the same system everyone told themselves they were voting against. Almost like that was by design.

I think it’s dumb to expect anything anti-establishment from either establishment party.

But that’s just me. A lot of people have bought the propaganda hook line and sinker and actually believe the people in power have their best interests at heart.

a reply to: Bluntone22

If Obama was a white man or woman he would not have ever been close to the White House with his lack of experience.

Maybe, but I think 2016 does present at least an argument there was a possibility because people wanted something fresh and "hope and change", lol... That statement gets me every time.

He was an affirmative action president. He also divided the country.

Honestly the whole skin color thing is just tiring. People try to say it's racist to criticize Obama, or "orange man bad"... Their policies give plenty of fodder to ridicule both.

Edit: To add, Trump is divisive too. So in that respect, they're again similar.

Trump was then elected because he was the total opposite. Not a career politician.

So people don't care about lack of experience? I think that goes against your earlier point.

Everyone has an opinion on both of those men and it’s really irrelevant what that opinion is but you have to admit the latter is the result of the former.

That's how the cycle goes. Obama was supposedly the antithesis to Bush, Trump the same to Obama. They all look the same to me.

originally posted by: Aallanon
Trump is as anti establishment as they come.

Fact

Because nothing is more anti-establishment than an establishment coastal elite that partied with the Clintons and Jeffrey Epstein..

a reply to: CriticalStinker

The republican party didn't promise anything with Trump. They did everything they could to prevent him winning their nomination. They eventually caved and have been riding his coattails.
I don't see them providing a viable candidate after he's gone.

With that being said, he's done more that I agree with than things I disagree with.
The last few weeks have definitely been a sh*t show though.
But with all this, the leftists are still leftists and incompatible with the Constitution, so will not be getting my vote.
We'll see how the next 7-8 months shake out.

a reply to: underwerks

Nothing. All that’s happened is that we’re at each others throats more than ever.

Which I'm guilty of too sometimes (if not much of the time).

I rip on democrats and republicans pretty hard for dividing our country, so I'll admit I'm a bit hypocritical when I direct that same negative vitriol to those who partake.

So in some ways I'm probably part of the problem, and will heed my own advice in at least admitting that and seeing where we can go from there.

I'll try to only use sarcasm from now on that is playful in nature, to prove a point. I should calm down my rhetoric.

Yep. And it’s looking like 2020 will be another Hobson’s choice. Sleepy Joe vs. Twitler.
It sure would be nice if either party could nominate a competent candidate for a change, but that would be a threat to the real power structure.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

His skin color was all that mattered some people.

And trump only lacked experience in politics.
He had years of experience running businesses, dealing with world leaders and making deals worth billions of dollars.

Again you can have an opinion if he did a good job or not but it was still experience.

Obama didn’t do much in politics.
He didn’t do much in the private sector...

He ran on personality alone.

a reply to: Bluntone22

Who had more experience isn't really the crux of my argument.

Again, I think there are more similarities between the two than differences.

I'm not defending Obama either. I think he was a horrible president, the worse at least in my lifetime up to his presidency.

We've had a bull market Trump's whole presidency, and still we were accruing additional debt. If we get more debt under Trump than Obama, I'll probably think Trump was worse. And people could use the "this wasn't his fault" debate, but those are the same people who didn't give that leniency to Obama (I fit into this group, that's a cop out, they knew what they were getting themselves into). But Trump isn't congress some will say, yup, but he promised he'd address this and hasn't. Now he's making it worse.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I honestly believe Trump's heart was in the right place and that he fully intended to follow through on every promise he made. I think he has done a better job of keeping his campaign promises than any other POTUS in a long time. That having been said, I think Trump overestimated how much support he would get from congress (still the two party monster it always was) after his election.

Trump is not the problem. Trump had to join one of the parties he was trying to overcome in order to get to the White House. If he hadn't been the republican nominee it never would have happened. In other words, he had to become part of the very forces he was set to conquer. The system is obviously the problem. The only way an outsider can get elected is to join one of the parties - no one else gets to play in this game. That has to change.

I believe term limits will go a long way to breaking the stranglehold the two party system has on this nation but even that will fall short of complete success. Worse yet, as long as the two parties are in charge of the law making body of government, don't expect term limits or real change to take place. They simply won't allow it. Its going to take something much bigger and probably... unpleasant ... to make it happen.

Trump is truly an outsider, from the established dem/ repub front.
He had to run as a republican for the only realistic chance for victory.
It is too early to write him off, he has been under tremendous attack from both parties because he is not an insider.
Judge him after he has been in office for 8 years.

originally posted by: choomsuba
Trump is truly an outsider, from the established dem/ repub front.
He had to run as a republican for the only realistic chance for victory.
It is too early to write him off, he has been under tremendous attack from both parties because he is not an insider.
Judge him after he has been in office for 8 years.

I can judge him now.

No need to wait. I'm not just going to wait 8 years to evaluate my employees.

You actually don’t have a choice, he will be elected by an overwhelmingly majority, electoral and popular vote.

a reply to: CriticalStinker