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The Suffering Servant;- New Testament version

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posted on Apr, 3 2020 @ 04:59 PM
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The Suffering Servant of Isaiah has always been a point of contest between the Jewish and the Christian reading of the Old Testament

One traditional Jewish interpretation is that he is a representative figure, standing for the sufferings of Israel, exiled in Babylon. From my previous survey of the chapters around these passages, it seems that they might have a point. They could at least be half-right.
Old Testament version

On the other hand, there is also a New Testament dimension to the interpretation of this theme.

It begins with the baptism of Jesus. The voice which Jesus hears (Mark ch1 v11), combines the declarations of Psalm 2 v7 (“my beloved son”) and of Isaiah ch42 v1; “Behold, my servant whom I uphold, my chosen in whom my Spirit delights”.

This sets up a combined “Son and servant” understanding of Jesus. The first four verses of Isaiah ch42 are also quoted by Matthew as fulfilled by Jesus (ch12 vv18-21). Paul tells us that Jesus “emptied himself, taking the form of a servant” (Philippians ch2 v7). Acts frequently calls him PAIS, as in “they were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus” (ch4 v27). In the Septuagint, I understand, the word PAIS is used to translate both “servant” and “son”.

When Simeon calls the baby Jesus “a light to the Gentiles”, that is echoing Isaiah ch49 v6.

The Servant says “For the Lord God helps me; therefore I have not been confounded; therefore I have set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be put to shame” (Isaiah ch50 v7). This is echoed in the statement that Jesus “set his face to go to Jerusalem (Luke ch9 v51).

But the real clue is the way that the main Suffering Servant song has been built into the New Testament. Taking the key verses;

Ch52 v15 “For that which has not been told them they shall see, and that which they have not heard they shall understand.”
This is directly quoted by Paul, Romans ch15 v21.

Ch53 v1 “Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
This is directly quoted in John ch12 v38, and also in Romans ch10 v16.

V4 “Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows.”
This is quoted in Matthew ch8 v17

Vv5-6 “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
Peter echoes these verses; “He himself bore our sins in his body… that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you were healed. For you were straying like sheep” (1 Peter ch2 vv24-25).
Paul uses the same idea; “For our sake him made him to be sin who knew no son, that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians ch5 v21).

Vv7-8 These are the verses which were being read by the Ethiopian eunuch, as quoted in Acts;
“As a sheep led to the slaughter, or a lamb before its shearer is dumb, so he opens not his mouth. In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken up from the earth” (Acts ch8 vv32-33).
The eunuch asks who is meant by these words, and of course Philip responds by teaching him about Jesus.
These verses may also be part of the inspiration behind John’s term “Lamb of God”.

V9 “And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.”
Peter says “He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips” (1 Peter ch2 v22)

V12 “Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
Because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sins of many and made intercession for the transgressors.”
Jesus quotes “numbered with the transgressors” as fulfilled in his person (Luke ch22 v37). The same thought is in Paul’s “he was put to death for our trespasses” (Romans ch4 25). It is the implied basis of the statement that “Christ died for our sons according to the scriptures” (1 Corinthians ch15 v3), which is quoted by Paul as the starting-point of the gospel message handed down by the church.

This is all summed up in the declaration made by Jesus about his own mission;
“The Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mark ch10 v45).

Jewish and Christian theologians spent much time in the Middle Ages arguing about the application of the “Servant” theme in Isaiah.
It might be better to accept the exiled community of Jacob/Israel, as the initial subject of the address, and then, on the authority of the Holy Spirit, to add Jesus Christ as the ultimate subject.




edit on 3-4-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2020 @ 06:11 PM
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spot on...that last sentence

brb bro...I gotta go read those quotes again....be awhile they really grab ya....obscure but familiar quotes I must say
edit on 3-4-2020 by GBP/JPY because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2020 @ 06:14 PM
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a reply to: GBP/JPY
Good idea. Perhaps reading Isaiah ch53 first, and then going through the N.T. citations.



posted on Apr, 3 2020 @ 06:56 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: GBP/JPY
Good idea. Perhaps reading Isaiah ch53 first, and then going through the N.T. citations.



IIRC, the Jewish authorities were so challenged by the Catholics over Isaiah 53 that they forbade any Jew to read the chapter. At the same time, however, they upheld the holiness of every word that proceeded from the mouth of YHVH.

Go figure.



posted on Apr, 3 2020 @ 06:58 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Jesus is God. I ask God to answer your prayers.



posted on Apr, 3 2020 @ 07:06 PM
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a reply to: DeathSlayer
Quite so. Though I prefer the offical formula (see Definition of Chalcedon) that Christ is both God and man. "Two natures in one person", you know.



posted on Apr, 3 2020 @ 07:24 PM
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yep, Jesus is the heir

a reply to: DISRAELI


edit on 3-4-2020 by GBP/JPY because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 3 2020 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: DeathSlayer
Quite so. Though I prefer the offical formula (see Definition of Chalcedon) that Christ is both God and man. "Two natures in one person", you know.

So are you, so is *everyone*. The ability to understand this truth is within you if you would just explore it.



posted on Apr, 4 2020 @ 10:24 AM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing

No. We are but man. We may receive the Holy Spirit to help guide us, but that does not make us both God and man, just man who hears the Voice of God and may accept its wisdom and guidance or not.



posted on Apr, 4 2020 @ 06:41 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

"Jewish and Christian theologians spent much time in the Middle Ages arguing about the application of the “Servant” theme in Isaiah.
It might be better to accept the exiled community of Jacob/Israel, as the initial subject of the address, and then, on the authority of the Holy Spirit, to add Jesus Christ as the ultimate subject."

I can see how Jesus/Yeshua would be a servant, but many other prophets as well as the children of Israel, besides him, fit the bill here too.
There are many verses that describe Israel, as a whole, throughout the Tanakh. The children of Israel were described as having gone through all that is spoken of in Isaiah 53 as well.

I see from the comments that the horse is still being placed before the cart with how people interpret the scriptures.



posted on Apr, 4 2020 @ 07:23 PM
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a reply to: believerofgod
Jesus is unique among "prophets" as the only one who came "to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mark ch10 v45). That is, he was sent for the purpose of offering up his life in the Crucifixion; thus initiating the reconciliation of man and God by dealing with the problem of sin. That's what makes him "servant" in a more absolute sense.

I do not deny that God is speaking to Israel, in the first instance. But the re-application of the words is endorsed by the New Testament, which means (from the Christian viewpoint) that it comes on the authority of the Holy Spirit.

I understand the relationship of God with his people as being one single continuous history, from Abraham to Jesus and beyond, so it would probably be better if Jews and Christians could work together on this one.

P.S. I don't know if you've seen the "first half" of this thread; The Suffering Servant- Old Testament version
edit on 4-4-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2020 @ 08:38 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


I will get to the other post after we finish with this one, or at least agree to disagree
... Why don't we go through some of the verses that you posted and see what the Tanakh teaches, shall we?

Ch52 v15 “For that which has not been told them they shall see, and that which they have not heard they shall understand.”
ISAIAH 52:13-14
'Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: so shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.'

The marred appearance of the Jewish people because of the ravages of
exile:
LAMENTATIONS 4:8
Their appearance had become blacker than soot, they are not recognized in the streets; their
skin has shriveled on their bones, it became dry as wood.

The shock and astonishment of the world upon the vindication of Israel,
G-d’s servant:
MICAH 7:15-16
15 According to the days of your coming out of the land of Egypt will I show unto them
marvelous things. 16 The nations shall see and be confounded, they shall lay their hands upon
their mouths, their ears shall be deaf.
ISAIAH 41:11
Behold, all those who were incensed against you shall be ashamed and confounded, those
who quarreled with you shall be as naught and lost.
JEREMIAH 16:19
O Lord, my strength and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall
come to You from the ends of the earth and say: "Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity,
and things of no benefit."
ISAIAH 66:8
Who has ever heard such a thing? Who has ever seen things such as these? Has a land ever
gone through her labor in one day? Has a nation ever been born in one moment, as Zion went
through her labor and gave birth to her children?

edit on 4-4-2020 by believerofgod because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2020 @ 09:44 PM
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ISAIAH 53:1
"Who would have believed what we are hearing? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?

What is meant by G-d manifesting His holy arm?
ISAIAH 52:9-10
9 Break forth into joy, sing together you waste places of Jerusalem, for the Lord has comforted
His people, He has redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The Lord has made bare His holy arm in the eyes
of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of Israel.
ISAIAH 62:8
The Lord swore by His right hand and by the arm of his strength: I will no longer give your
grain to your enemies, and foreigners shall no longer drink your wine for which you have toiled.
ISAIAH 63:12
Who caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses, who divided the waters before
them to make for Himself an everlasting name...
EXODUS 3:20
So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all of My miracles which I shall do in the
midst of it, and after that he will let you go.
EXODUS 14:31
Israel saw the great hand that G-d inflicted upon Egypt, and the people feared G-d, and they
believed in G-d and in Moses His servant.
EXODUS 15:6,12
6 Your right hand, O Lord is majestic in power, Your right hand, O Lord shatters the enemy. 12
You stretched out Your right hand, the earth swallowed them.
DEUTERONOMY 4:34
Or has G-d tried to take for Himself a nation from within a nation by trials, by signs and wonders
and by war and by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm and by great terrors as the
Lord your G-d did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
DEUTERONOMY 7:19
The great miracles that you saw with your own eyes, the signs, the wonders, the mighty hand
and outstretched arm with which G-d brought you out of Egypt.
PSALM 44:3
For by their own sword they did not possess the land, and their own arm did not save them, but
Your right hand, and Your arm, and the light of Your presence, for You did favor them.
PSALM 98:1-3
1 O sing to the Lord a new song, for He has done wonderful things, His right hand and His
holy arm have gained the victory for Him. 2 The Lord has made known His salvation, He has
revealed His righteousness in the sight of the nations. He has remembered His lovingkindness
and His faithfulness to the House of Israel. 3 All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of
our G-d.
PSALM 89:10
You Yourself did crush Rahab like one who is
slain. You scattered Your enemies with Your
mighty arm.



posted on Apr, 5 2020 @ 01:13 AM
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a reply to: believerofgod
We don't need to agree to disaagree, because I won't be denying your interpretations. That is the point of the previous thread (qv), and the information you've posted could usefully be added to that thread.

What I'm doing is accepting your explanation, as one layer of God's meaning, and adding the Christian understanding on top as another layer. I think that's the true relationship.



(The first thread, when you get to it, is merely a summary of Deutero-Isaiah, demonstrating how the document as a whole is addressed to the exiles in Babylon)

edit on 5-4-2020 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2020 @ 11:55 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI


Jewish and Christian theologians spent much time in the Middle Ages arguing about the application of the “Servant” theme in Isaiah.

I love your teachings and thank you for sharing your mind.

This reminded me of the rift between Jew and Gentile understanding each other. I read this some time ago and from the works of Dr. Pidgon of his Eth Cepher. This is not a direct quote but only as I remember it.

indirect Quote
It is written of Luqas [Luke 9:35] describing the transfiguration of Messiah: And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying :This is my beloved Son; hear Him.

Now it is believed by some scholars that this translation was written so as to agree with a similar verse found in Mattithyahu [Matthew] and Marqus [Mark]. But in the Luqas account the Greek account uses the phrase “ho eklelegmenos ‘, which is “the elect one”. Due to the fact that we have no autographs to clarify this, and have found that the prophet Chanok [Enoch] used this understanding fourteen times, set forth this understanding as “this is My yachiyd, the Elect One” -
Un Quote

This does not take any authority from the word “Son” as both Son and Elect One are interchangeable in this pattern. What it can do is cushion the disagreement between religions as to God having a Son. How so?

The books of Enoch were used and understood by James and the Nazarene synagogue. This then can be understood as the Hebrew/Aramaic congregation teaching from Enoch's work. Most bibles today use the word Son while the first century congregation used the "Elect One". Why? Because Jesus was not yet come to James and was a prophecy by Enoch. To further the confusion of disagreement Enoch was not Jewish and yet both Jew and Gentile adopted his work. That in itself shows us that at times we don't even undertstand why we disagree.
lol



posted on Apr, 5 2020 @ 04:57 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Fair enough. I guess with all the studying I have been doing over the past several years, I do not only see Isaiah 53 being Israel as a whole, but rather Israel at times and then the prophets as well. That does not exclude Yeshua, as I see him as a prophet too. It was the prophets job to always lead the Israelites back to Torah, YHVH's instructions for living, Yeshua was no different.

I agree that Jews and Christians should find common ground, but to try and convince a Jew that Yeshua is to be worshiped too, will never happen brother. I consider myself an adopted child of Israel, and I along with the Jews worship the One true G-d of Israel and Him alone. There is no trinity in Tanakh, and after YHVH led the Israelites out of Egypt, not one Israelite turned to their children and said "now we know that G-d the Father, and the son, and the holy spirit led us out of Egypt. The common ground needs to be following Torah again, until then things will never change.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
'Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.'

Peace and blessings brother



posted on Apr, 6 2020 @ 11:01 AM
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a reply to: believerofgod


There is no trinity in Tanakh,

Really? Can you not see the forest but only a tree?

1Sa 16:13-15
Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren; and the spiri
of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to
Ramah.
Now the spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrified
him.
And Saul's servants said unto him: 'Behold now, an evil spirit from God terrifieth thee.

John 14:16-18
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of
truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7-11
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the
Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Did the God of Israel not send a spirit of evil upon King Saul? Did not the same God send a spirit of comfort to all who would accept it? If you deny the one then how can you accept the other? Does not the forest have many trees and among those trees assorted seeds?

Is the first covenant the only covenant given to mankind? If yes then how can Adam be justified? For Adam had neither your covenant nor the covenant of the Christ. Did not God love Enoch who was not joined to your covenant or to my covenant? Yet Enoch was justified to reign in the celestial abode with neither covenant. How then can all men become born into one Spirit if that Spirit is divided?

Would you care to discuss?



































edit on 6-4-2020 by Seede because: addes scripture to my post



posted on Apr, 7 2020 @ 02:29 PM
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Here now is a link to the previous thread, where I was putting foward the "collective" interpreation of these chapters, based on the Old Testament context;
Suffering Servantt- Old Testament version



posted on Apr, 8 2020 @ 11:54 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: vethumanbeing

No. We are but man. We may receive the Holy Spirit to help guide us, but that does not make us both God and man, just man who hears the Voice of God and may accept its wisdom and guidance or not.

You are 'God' expressed as a human. You are a human being possessed with a 'God' energy animation particle. You are God experiencing Itself.
edit on 8-4-2020 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 10 2020 @ 03:25 PM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing



Originally posted by DISRAELI
Quite so. Though I prefer the offical formula (see Definition of Chalcedon) that Christ is both God and man. "Two natures in one person", you know.




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
So are you, so is *everyone*. The ability to understand this truth is within you if you would just explore it.




Originally posted by ketsuko
No. We are but man. We may receive the Holy Spirit to help guide us, but that does not make us both God and man, just man who hears the Voice of God and may accept its wisdom and guidance or not.




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
You are 'God' expressed as a human. You are a human being possessed with a 'God' energy animation particle. You are God experiencing Itself.


Remember



"The lips of wisdom are closed, except to the ears of Understanding"


How are you ever going to convince them…to stop clinging onto their religion/s…



You need to change your approach perhaps; maybe get them into a dialogue of sorts…a bit of back and forth…really duke it out…



But to do that you’re going to have to throw out some scriptures…to make your case…

Then again you, could always use Art as a form of communication

Take Michael Angelo for example…


No…Not You lol

This Michelangelo …



Happy Easter Friend…


- JC




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