Best argument for god? ... From an atheist

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

Life after death is the deal breaker. This is what really underpins belief in God.

Would anyone believe in God if they believed in one brief life on Earth and then nothing?

I've always struggled with the concept that I should live after death but that a fly or a mouse wont. What's the diff?

Reincarnation is a possibility but you don't really need God for that.

So...no I don't have one.

a reply to: chr0naut

This amassed intelligence is not likely to be like us. It will communicate and co-think fully. It will not experience death. It will not experience our limitations. It will be super intelligent. It will be all powerful over the physical universe. It will be of such a state that we could not distinguish it from God.

This closes the loop on the universe, making it self-sustaining - from the beginning.

Good argument. Unless we become extinct (nuclear war, global warming, an asteroid hit).

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
All the circular pointless arguments aren't helping us understand why we exist so let's try a different tactic.

I'm curious to see if us godless heathens could argue for a skydaddy convincingly.

Or to the religious amongst us, I would like to hear your arguments for a pointless godless existence.

Why should a godless existence be pointless? Seems like a presumption

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

There are many basic constants and numbers that define the physics of the universe. Vary any of these basic constants by even a tiny amount and the universe could not exist in the way it does.

The likelihood of a single of these variables being exactly right is minuscule, however, if you take all the constants underlying physics and consider the tiny mathematical space that is stable but varied, then the probability of a univesrse being so configured is close to zero. The universe is mathematically improbable.

If you consider the 13.4 billion years since the big bang, spread across vast areas of space and potentially matter, even then the universe is still very, very improbable.

To find ourselves in such a universe, and knowing how incredibly rare it must be, and to find remarkable variation, where one might more reasonable expect a singular consistent state for everything, leads one to the conclusion that there must be a significant organizing force, because nothing else fits.

Then we come to question what that organizing force might be and that there appears to be intent. If there is intent, the intent and capability must be of a truly phenomenal scale. God like.

Similarly, the universe evolves and changes through time. It was born in a singularity and if it is truly open, it will expand forever into a state of entropy where no work can reasonably be done. For intelligent life, this would be a hard end.

So, to extend the life of much of the universe, it may be possible to diferentially collapse parts of space-time and therefore provide the energy difference required. This would consume some of the expanding universe to fuel hundreds of billions of extra years of existence.

At the point of being able to collapse space-time in such a matter, control over time itself is most likely to be trivial. So it makes sense that the accumulated intelligence's of billions of years of universal development would have the capability to pre-figure the basic physics, and ongoing development of the universe in such a way as to allow for their own existence.

This amassed intelligence is not likely to be like us. It will communicate and co-think fully. It will not experience death. It will not experience our limitations. It will be super intelligent. It will be all powerful over the physical universe. It will be of such a state that we could not distinguish it from God.

This closes the loop on the universe, making it self-sustaining - from the beginning.

Incredulity is not an argument for god anymore than ego is an argument for authority. We should expect more substance when we are weighing the data in these matters, physical properties to examine and explain in biological/cosmological terms. Or lack thereof.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
Simple, atheism is based on nothing factual, it is believed totally by FAITH... The absolute IRONY of fundamental atheists who label believers as "religious" is beyond incredible.

Ironically, most atheists are disgusted with Christianity because atheists claim Christianity requires “blind faith” or “blind trust.” But by the very definition of the name they carry, atheists in fact are the ones who have based their beliefs on the absence of evidence. Atheists are a people “without a belief in theism” not because they have disproved the existence of God with evidence, but rather because they claim there is an absence of evidence for God. They believe there is no God because they cannot see any evidence of God. Atheists trust there is no God not because of what they see, but because of what they cannot see. Their conviction stems from things not seen.

The Blind Faith of Atheism

By that nonsense, you'd believe that there are pink glowing unicorns on the dark side of the moon, who drink tea every Tuesday after horn dancing.

No? What evidence is there for your denial of such a thing. Surely it is based on the things you cannot see.. And from the above, it means you're just not believing hard enough.

There is no evidence for god, except that which man has invented under the guise of religion, to control weaker minded people in order to maintain power over them. There is no concept of god except that which another human has told you. If it were not for that single fact, you would not know of nor believe in this god.

originally posted by: Willtell
As per belief it certainly is known to us that anything created has a creator. How can we deny we don’t perceive that?

Usually your mother and father... but at least, so far, the DNA of a male and a female.

Then the world around you, every experience, event, interaction, relationship, encounter, shaped your personality, into what you are right now, and even that is an ever changing thing.

You are different now than you were 1 minute ago. Subtle changes over time, create a different you, yet.. you are still the same person you were when you were born. Are you the same personality that you were 10, 15, 20 years ago?

Will you be the same in 10 years time?

Has little to do with god, the perception you have of yourself. Or your existence. It's all about how your garden is tended by the people with their own gardens, doing the same.

You are not who you think you are. and it has nothing to do with god.

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
time to bust this on ya!

chuck missler videos....proves with science and math that the Bible is written by God from beyond our domain

translitteration and Hebrew letter meaning coupled with the math probability of prophecy.......

no other book has prophecy....not the quran or hindi....zoroastrians or nada. God wrote a personal letter to Cyrus 300 years before he was born...in Scripture....calling him by name to be sure Cyrus knows God has his attention.

Jesus said no one knows the day but then He died. God the father revealed what must shortly come to pass though later in Revelation.....which verse?....1point 1...Rev 1:1...reveals like no other book....details of the endtime. with timelines out the wazzoo....the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass....

Can you skip to the last bit and let us know how it ends? I'm getting bored with this story. It's so tedious, and the main protagonist is an annoying whiny twit. "Oh look at me, I'm on a cross..." get over it. So were loads of other people. We don't have entire chapters in books written about them, so we.

I'd read it myself, but since you know how it goes, perhaps you can tell me, Who Did It?

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed ... watch this movie with Ben Stein. Should convince you of a higher intelligence at work

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Willtell
We can define what is the problem with God according to most peoples gripes:

One, lack of communication with us

Two, allowing such suffering

In common language, why don't we have access to the faculties to perceive God

Why does God allow such a high degree of human suffering?

God allows freewill, freewill allows for suffering
If God controlled our decisions our actions then we are no more than puppets, Him a marionette.
Love allows choice
That and in the Old Testament God stopped many nations and people from outright evil and many people call Him a monster for doing that
Damned if He does and damned if He doesn’t
Think about it

You, we all cause suffering.

God created perfection, we wanted choice

Loads of free will, choice and the cause of his own suffering for this little guy, eh..

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Finspiracy

Either the chain goes on and on and every creator has a creator or a certain creator simply wasn't created.

All in all both seem impossible though every creation has a creator.

I don't think even you understand any of what you just wrote. Just sounds groovy.

for every creation there is a creator, except the creator, who may or may have not been created, implying an endless loop of creators creating themselves in order to create things to ponder if there is a creator or not, or not.

Who created a diamond? was it created by a creator, or by the force or the elements over a very very long time?

Bit like life, really.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Finspiracy

That's right. All I can do in these type of discussion is blow peoples minds.

We're all in this together.

some minds are so feeble they're easily blown...

Others sort of implode in on themselves at the circular logic used to bend things into submission to a belief.

originally posted by: ManFromEurope
What do we need a god for?

According to those who would argue it without engaging in anything but their own opinions, we need god to;

Show us right from wrong; we'd all be murdering rapists if it were not for the word of god.
Allow us to believe in life and consciousness.
Know good from evil and act accordingly.

and most importantly,

to give us something to believe in, for without it, the inevitable end of life is a dire and traumatic thought process. To know that death is final, is intolerable. Therefore, we die and enter into paradise.... as long as we don't go around murdering and raping everyone in the mean time.

a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

How about going to heaven and talking to a person, but not having to talk, using telepathy instead and explaining to me the meaning of life. For me it was enough to believe in Yehovah.

originally posted by: Gnarley

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Willtell
We can define what is the problem with God according to most peoples gripes:

One, lack of communication with us

Two, allowing such suffering

In common language, why don't we have access to the faculties to perceive God

Why does God allow such a high degree of human suffering?

God allows freewill, freewill allows for suffering
If God controlled our decisions our actions then we are no more than puppets, Him a marionette.
Love allows choice
That and in the Old Testament God stopped many nations and people from outright evil and many people call Him a monster for doing that
Damned if He does and damned if He doesn’t
Think about it

You, we all cause suffering.

God created perfection, we wanted choice

Loads of free will, choice and the cause of his own suffering for this little guy, eh..

It was down to choice.
It was perfect
We chose knowledge
You think God doesn’t love that child more than you, why?
Few Christians from the early church lived a full life, most died, Jesus died

If this life is all, if this is it for you, fine
You don’t get what I believe
You don’t understand, can’t, don’t have the capacity

a reply to: Gnarley

You may have read it but I doubt that
You if you did read it, you understood nothing

Act clever but havnt a clue, just show your ignorance

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Except i heard a Muslim mutter the same argument. Who am i to trust?

I think ill just trust my eyes.

originally posted by: Specimen88
I've seen Atheists preach science, but not practice it. All the while I've Theists preach God, but practice science.

Maybe there really is a Loki?

That is backwards.

originally posted by: Murgatroid
Simple, atheism is based on nothing factual, it is believed totally by FAITH... The absolute IRONY of fundamental atheists who label believers as "religious" is beyond incredible.

Ironically, most atheists are disgusted with Christianity because atheists claim Christianity requires “blind faith” or “blind trust.” But by the very definition of the name they carry, atheists in fact are the ones who have based their beliefs on the absence of evidence. Atheists are a people “without a belief in theism” not because they have disproved the existence of God with evidence, but rather because they claim there is an absence of evidence for God. They believe there is no God because they cannot see any evidence of God. Atheists trust there is no God not because of what they see, but because of what they cannot see. Their conviction stems from things not seen.

The Blind Faith of Atheism

Hilariously ironic coming from you. We don't believe you because you don't have evidence. It's pretty simple stuff. We LACK faith in God and in ancient man. You blindly believe it all with no scrutiny. Calling lack of faith, faith is dishonest. So if I lack a car, that means I secretly have one???

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Well if there is a God and He created everything as claimed, isn’t understanding science understanding God
If God created us for relationship, isn’t understanding Him His greatest desire.
Your argument is ignorant of science and it’s Western foundation

It goes to show you that nobody actually has a relationship with god, because if they did, then they WOULD know him and wouldn't need to answer any mysteries of the universe. If his greatest desire is for people to know him, then he failed miserably because it's all based on blind faith and guessing which religion is correct.