want to stick it to the banks, instead of stealing the cash why not wipe out debt

I have noticed alot of hackers brag about their prowess (alot quite deserved) in breaking into systems.

outside of criminal theft and outright giggles , more and more is for some "justice".

Like anonymous does (and to be fair some is for good reason/causes).

I also hear from them and alot of non hacker groups on how the "banks" , credit card companies, ect are screwing the people (again with some issues being justified).

We also see alot of them getting security breaches with theft of said "common man" with those companies voicing concern .

what I have not seen and would make a HUGE STATEMENT against them is to do a security breach but instead of stealing money that hurt their accounts but clearing out their debt.

think about the uproar that "social justice hacking" would cause.

now I can think of two reasons this is not done.

one... the account debts are much better defended and backed up than the spending is.

this is not unrealistic because if say an account was hacked they got insurance, they promise "we will give you credit monitoring free" , they dont have to pay (outside of a lawsuit and that is iffy at best much less getting any real money out of them for the people... lawyers different story) to fix the person(s) credit/reputation/legal issues , and overall they just jack up their rates on everyone... thus increasing their profit even more.

IMO the extra defense isnt that much since alot of hackers LOVE a challenge and this would be epic...
but I am not naive to think the extra security isnt to be dismissed.

two (the biggest one)....the companies would actually TAKE IT SERIOUSLY since it DIRECTLY EFFECTS THEIR BOTTOM LINE and they would use all their influence (the type that in one example changed the law that credit card debt cannot be discharged by bankruptcy and other such laws in their favor) to ACTUALLY FIND and PUNISH the criminals. Along with cry they need government to bail them out and also they would increase their security.



while right now cyber crime is punished lets be real..... they dont hit it as hard as they claim and the main excuses are in vein of "they are technically more savy than us", "the law isnt keeping up (imo theft is theft no matter if with gun or computer)" or the old standby "they are out of the country so cant get to them or find them"

but if they cannot discharge the costs on the customers (as they do now) and it effects their bottom line (with bonuses / stock options to the bosses / board of companies) they will do whatever it takes to get them..


that kind of heat is something the hackers and social warriors dont want to challenge and i can say I dont blame them.

but if you REALLY want to "make a difference/stick it to "the man" " along with the ultimate computer hacking rights and make a national statement...
that would be the only way to do it.


NOW MAKE NO MISTAKE I AM NOT SAYING I SUPPORT THIS CLEARLY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY ...

Just asking what others think about this

Scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

want to give advise to criminals ? - instead of logging off - why not write your thread ?

I accidentally hit post before done typing.

that happens so cut me some slack.

BTW not "giving advice to criminals" but in reality posting a question/thought

again NOT ADVOCATING CRIMINAL ACTIVITY...


Just wondering those hackers who (many causes are just) that commit the crime of hacking for any reason might not want to take on the banks in a way that actually helps someone not line some criminals pocket

I thought ATS was a place to spitball some general ideas in academic sense,,,not actually act on it.


scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

Hackers always go after data ... and obtain a copy of said data ... for their own purposes.

What you suggest is the deletion of a great many records. This is why everyone uses off-line back-ups.

You would need to do it from the inside so that you could load the back-ups and delete them.

The off-line component is the one to beat and very few people would know the complete extent.

P

a reply to: scrounger

Perhaps the answer you seek is how many these hackers are employed by the government, the best of them never see jail they get employed by the goverment....

There's even a movie that describes this very situation.

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: scrounger

Hackers always go after data ... and obtain a copy of said data ... for their own purposes.

What you suggest is the deletion of a great many records. This is why everyone uses off-line back-ups.

You would need to do it from the inside so that you could load the back-ups and delete them.

The off-line component is the one to beat and very few people would know the complete extent.

P

oh I agree it isnt an easy challenge and this is one reason it is more secure than the debts coming in.


but from what I hear hackers LOVE the hard challenge just for bragging rights.

I also agree that criminal or "black hat" hackers collect data for their own economic gain...

but what I am saying is there are ALOT of hackers who are / claim to be "robin hood" types

mostly data to "take down bad people " (outside of criminal act can be considered a noble cause).

but this would be the ultimate "robin hood" challenge

at minimum it would bring to light how the companies care more about their data than their customers.

but if someone pulled this off (note NOT SUPPORTING CRIMINAL ACTIVITY along with anyone suggesting I do it must know i am computerally challenged) it would be the hacking skill of the century AND the biggest robin hood of all time..


the moaning of the companies (that dont seem to care enough to defend us consumers) would be epic


scrounger

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed


oh I agree (something nice between our usual disagreements, refreshing I say) the government has some of the best hackers.

they dont like competition and if they have it either want them silenced or working for them...


but even with their "experts" they are getting hacked left and right it seams

scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

Well that's like the tough guy scenario, there's always someone out there that will kick your ass.

Once on top you become complacent, Mike Tyson is a great example of that.

And yes it's a pleasant change...

a reply to: scrounger


Look what I am asking or putting up for discussion has a historical reference.

look at the idolization of the criminals from the prirates, to old west and 20s who robbed ships/ trains / banks (respectively to age) that continues to this day..

In no way do I idolize them nor approve of what they did... because when you look at the whole story yes alot (not all) were not robbing "the people" but the "evil railroad barons/ banks" they claimed
but they hurt alot of innocent people, law enforcement , and in reality did it for personal gain with good publicity a side benefit.

but I noticed that while the stealing for personal gain is still there, the rest of it seems not to be..


scrounger

Go watch Mr. Robot
You’ll feel better.

a reply to: pheonix358

I agree, I work in IT. Their is a disaster recovery plan in all major companies. First there is Daily, weekly, monthly, yearly backups.

Second. the backups are stored in multiple locations.

3rd, as the poster said, some of these backups are stored on tape offline.

A hacker could probably get into the near onsite backups. However, they would never be able to do offline backups without a physical access component. Therefore, what you say can't happen as it would basically be a waste of time.

This is why they steal the data instead. If I were a hacker, why would I spend all this time doing this, if I were to just have it all done in a matter of days. Instead, I would take millions of accts, drain the accts, transfer it off shore, then bounce it all over the globe, till I could get to a place I could withdraw it.

The difference is I could potentially make billions if not caught, vs doing some social justice crap which if caught still means I do 20 years in jail. Not saying some hackers wouldnt be interested in your feel good, thought. But when the risk is 20 years in jail. the risk vs reward to do something temporary isnt really worth it. Now if I could walk away with a billion???? is that worth potentially 20 years in jail? thats what they think about.

Can it be done, what are the ramifications if caught, what can I get away with, what are the risk factors.

Just my 2 cents

Camain

a reply to: camain


I understand the idea of multiple backups and on devices/media not on site for the SHTF situations.

Learned that back in the pre internet days (even using paper gasp).

But I wonder something.

everything backed up on media is still from a computer program.

we know that supposedly secure systems and even backups have had trojen horse/ worm programs that sit dormant to activate only under specific conditions.

alot of them have remained undetectable until they activate.

I have even see supposedly secure backups when brought back to fix XX problem the malicious program comes alive and you still in same boat.

not saying it would be easy but quite the challenge (what hackers love) would it be possible that during the backups that same dormant worm (for lack of better term) is backed up as well?
thus when they bring it back to fix an attack that it activates ?

remember we really dont have alot of "paper" backups anymore

scrounger

a reply to: camain


one other thing just for discussion

I understand the idea of worth vs punishment in this situaiton.

but just for discussion would it not be just like say the gangsters of the 20s during the depression
you take and drain the funds (remember its all just electro money) but then erase the debt of that account and others to more cover your tracks?
along with the "good will" you get from the public like "robin hood"?
hell that is how alot of gangsters from the past were able to hide out for so long.

a win win for sake of discussion

chaos is one of the best covers just saying

scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

Banks don’t screw people, people screw themselves.

Also the banks have off site data backup so hackers would find it hard to get rid of all data.

a reply to: scrounger

You borrow this idea from Fight Club?

a reply to: scrounger
One serious question scrounger "how much in debt are you to the banks"? Cos it looks sure like you want some one to wipe it for you. And retype the bit about "clearing out their debt", don't you mean clearing our debt not theirs.

originally posted by: GreenGunther
Go watch Mr. Robot
You’ll feel better.

I was going to suggest fight club

One of the things people need to understand is that big banks normally use mainframes and when playing in that arena things are a lot different such as data exists inside files but is normally backed up in a non file based way to retain all the formatting of the data along with schemas and other goodies so the backup is not a copy of the database itself as it allows for selective restoration of sections or just single records as required and yes the db files will be backed up in a physical way as that allows for disaster recovery to get the system up and running again and then bring the files up to date.

Changes to the database will be recorded in journals which can be pre/post update or both which allow for recovery of databases from errors quickly and auditing so you can see what changes happened and when and who did it.

The idea is possible but would require a team of people with the relevant skills and local knowledge of the systems but banks etc are aware of this sort of idea and put in various checks and balances to ensure no one can do such a thing.

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed


oh I agree (something nice between our usual disagreements, refreshing I say) the government has some of the best hackers.

they dont like competition and if they have it either want them silenced or working for them...


but even with their "experts" they are getting hacked left and right it seams

scrounger

The Gov doesn't have the best hackers, the gov created the system so those gov hackers you called it actually has ownership and/or created it. No one can simply wipe debt by hacking without getting away with it. Just like hackers adding money into bank account. It not that simple. There are different groups watching.

Once you get caught you get massive fined, if you get caught too many times, they will send assassins to hackers and kill them. The only way to wipe debt is screw the system over and have the Gov running panic which won't happen anytime due to too many blind loyalty. That is why majority of the world is enslaved(petro-dollar).

How many times do I have to say this "One side openly evil the other secretly evil." Hackers know what I'm talking about.

originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: scrounger
One serious question scrounger "how much in debt are you to the banks"? Cos it looks sure like you want some one to wipe it for you. And retype the bit about "clearing out their debt", don't you mean clearing our debt not theirs.

o for crying out loud

so your saying I must be in debt up to my eyeballs to put forth a question of this nature on ATS?

really?

how about/ what happened to ATS putting forth ideas for discussion?

or simply put what if / why question?

BTW which part did you miss of me saying I DO NOT SUPPORT CRIMINAL ACTIVITY?

so to use your logic are you working for, own , or support a bank that would be effected that scares you why this question is put?

smh

scrounger