Utah cuts Healthcare costs by Flying Employees to Mexico for Prescriptions

originally posted by: namehere
a reply to: Boadicea

you may have the right to life...

Not "may" have the right to life. I do have the right to life.

...but healthcare isn't life...

Life cannot be sustained unless health is nursed and nurtured, therefore, yes, life is dependent upon healthcare.

...and as long as you are healthy and able to work, your healthcare is your own responsibility...

My healthcare is my right, my privilege, AND my responsibility... and it's the government laws, regulations and guns that are preventing me from fulfilling that responsibility unless and until I jump through their very expensive hoops.

...why should others have to shoulder your burden and limit their right to prosperity when you can pay for yourself?

They shouldn't. And I specifically stated otherwise. That no one has to provide my healthcare. I simply stated that we have the absolute and inalienable natural right to provide our own healthcare -- with or without other CONSENTING adults.

More to the point, I am talking about the actual act of nurturing and nursing the body, whether with medications or otherwise. I'm not talking about how to pay for healthcare, much less talking about health insurance, which is both inefficient AND expensive for questionable value and worth.

Nor does anyone have a right to prosperity. We have the absolute inalienable natural right to provide for ourselves from the bounty of the earth. Money and credit and everything else comes from man -- not nature -- and therefore no one has a "right" to anything man-made. That kind of "right" is really only entitlements and privileges granted by government.

...we already have socialized healthcare for people that can't work so why should people who can take care of their own healthcare costs be given such services?

They shouldn't... didn't think that, didn't say that. In fact, I'm saying the exact opposite, that EVERYONE should be able to provide their own healthcare without interference. And, of course, take out all the rules and regs and middle men bleeding us dry, and healthcare costs will go down.

On the other hand, with a combination single-payer/private option system, removing the necessity of insurance -- note I said "necessity" and not "option" -- many other costs would likewise be reduced or eliminated. Just take a look at your auto insurance costs for bodily injury... those would be gone because medical costs would be already be covered. No more personal injury lawsuits for medical bills. No more unpaid emergency room visits (tacked onto everyone else's bills) for simple conditions that could be treated with a doctor's visit. How many other ways do we "pay" for healthcare that we never receive?

...all that's going to happen is a decline in care for those who really need it, and for what? to satisfy the selfishness of lazy people that refuse to be responsible for their own life?

Nice story, Bro... but I didn't say that. I didn't think that. I'm actually demanding even greater personal responsibility and action by people for their own healthcare, which is currently restricted and/or outright denied by government guns.

Why don't you want people to be able to take care of themselves? Why do you want people to be dependent upon others for their quality and quantity of life? Why do you want to give others that power over you???

America is founded on the idea of freedom through personal responsibility not freedom through dependence on and bondage to others, because that's not freedom.

Exactly. But "freedom" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. You are contradicting yourself by invoking government controlled medicine and I am demanding that freedom to nurse, nurture and sustain my own life. You are insisting that I be dependent upon government and others to do that for me.

Why??? What do you have against freedom and personal rights, privileges and responsibilities???

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Edumakated

Only about 50% of drugs are currently developed in the US. If we look back to the 80s(which are now some of the most pact drugs today) the US and Japan were both developing around 30% of drugs.

So even just looking at that, why are we the only country "subsidizing" costs even though plenty of other countries are developing drugs?

It gets even more ridiculous to make the claim that our drug prices are higher because we develop the drugs when you start looking into who is actually funding the development.

For example, Roche, one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world, has their R&D facility in the US but they're based in Switzerland. The same goes for Sanofi in France.

So while most drugs are being developed in the US, they're being funded by foreign companies. So why do are we paying so much more for drugs than Switzerland and France even though companies from those countries are actually funding drug development?

And that's before we even get to generic drugs. Why do I have to pay more for a drug, produced by a company based in India that had no hand in the R&D, than anywhere else in the world?

The answer is because we have allowed our healthcare system to be dictated by a for-profit industry that doesn't actually do anything except act as a middle man.

$1 billion is $1 billion regardless of the company's "home base". It still cost $1 billion to develop the drug. The math does not change regardless if the company is French, US, or whoever. The company still needs to recoup the cost of development. If their home country won't allow them to sell at X prices, they sell in the US to recoup the cost. Again, the US is subsidizing them...

The problem is the US subsidizes all the other countries. The pharma companies can't charge market prices in other countries, they just jack up the price in the US to offset the losses.

On behalf of the citizens of the world: we would like to thank the good US peoples, for subsidizing the poor French and Swiss pharmaceutical corporations.

Roche 2019:

...Core operating profit last year climbed 9 percent to 20.5 billion Swiss francs ($20.65 billion), the company said. Sales rose 7 percent to 56.8 billion francs, just ahead of the 56.4 billion francs average estimate in a Reuters poll...

Sanofi 2019:

PROFITS ($M)
$5,081.80

Wow ! That's about $25 billion in profits right there, and all from the good US citizens eh ?
About $76 from every single person !
Very generous of you !
Merci beaucoup !

BTW: any other world-wide industries, that you figure you're individually supporting ?

a reply to: Nothin

I would be interested to know how much these companies charge for their medications by country.

Time after time I have seen the same medication in one country being sold for a very reasonably low price in one country and that same medication being sold for exorbitant prices in the US.

If these companies are not doing this, then my hats off to them as they are obviously running an ethical, and profitable company.

EDIT:
I found this link to a PDF with some data regarding US prices versus international prices.
Comparison of U.S. and International Prices for Top Medicare Part B Drugs by Total Expenditures
Pay close attention to pages 14 and 15 of the document for charts that outline the report's conclusion.

6. Conclusion
In this paper, we found that overall, the prices paid for Medicare Part B drugs with the greatest expenditures in the U.S. exceeded the prices paid in countries with similar economic conditions. The amount by which U.S. prices exceeded those of international comparators varied significantly by product, and there was no clear pattern as to which countries were consistently paying lower prices. We find these higher U.S. prices mean that the Medicare program pays nearly twice as much as it would pay for the same or similar drugs in other countries.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: Waterglass

It will be interesting to see what happens when one of these people die from a contaminated or defective knockoff drug.

Lawsuit city.

I worked for Big Pharma. If bought from a legitimate source (which I'm sure this company is) the drugs are no different than what is sold in the US.

Waterglass got it 100% correct, the US is subsidizing the countries that pay less. Big Pharma always says the high price is for R&D, but we also know it is for bonuses, BMW, Mansions etc. In reality we all could pay less, but try taking money away from the greediest people on earth.

The only reason they get away with it in the US is because of the big pharma has politicians in their pocket.

a reply to: Nothin


Numbers are fun.

To be honest a one year fiscal report doesn't really mean much. You need to have a 5 to 7 year fiscal report to know what's actually happening.
Did they lose money in any of those years?
What's the average profit on investment on those years?


Even the second link you posted shows a 12.1% profit on revenues and was a 46% drop in profit.

12% is a reasonable profit but people tend to look only at the dollar amount without context.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

America is the only reason the drug industry hasn't collapsed on itself from the burden price controls place on it globally, because those "cheap" drugs aren't actually cheap, the prices globally are artificially lowered and the US price is the real price.

a reply to: Bluntone22

Hi BO22.
Perhaps some do only look at the basic most simple figure, which is why my post was done that way.

Agreed that the pharmaceutical industry is very complex, with long R&D cycles, heavy investments, and occasional big project write-offs.
All of those affecting any single years profits: you are right.
Some of them go belly-up, and/or get bought-out when they are 'weak'.

Did you think that was the point of my post ?

a reply to: namehere

Nope. I spent some time working in pharmacy. The fun thing about running an insurance claim is it shows you the material cost of the drug, the average price the drug costs pharmacies, and the amount the insurance pays.

Most drugs cost, at most, a few bucks to produce for a full course. The pharmacy pays 10 to 1000 times the material cost. And the insurance generally pays less back to the pharmacy than what it cost to purchase the drug for its hyperinflated price.

That's leaves a lot of profit on the table for Big Pharma and insurance companies.

originally posted by: namehere
a reply to: Xcalibur254

America is the only reason the drug industry hasn't collapsed on itself from the burden price controls place on it globally, because those "cheap" drugs aren't actually cheap, the prices globally are artificially lowered and the US price is the real price.

Probably zero pharmaceutical companies, whom are NOT in the US market, making any profits then, right ?

America saves the world again !
Yay !
Merci beaucoup !

BTW: any other world-wide industries, that you figure you're individually supporting ?

a reply to: Nothin

Let's just say that this website has a lot of members that have never read an actual financial report but are experts anyway.

One common clue is not knowing the difference between revenue and profit.

A little more information to round out the discussion...

Taxpayers — not Big Pharma — have funded the research behind every new drug since 2010

Pharmaceutical Patent Abuse: To Infinity and Beyond!

Big pharmaceutical companies are spending far more on marketing than research

ETA: Corrected link -- and big thanks to Nothin for the heads up

a reply to: Bluntone22

Yeah. Another clue is so many knowing the cost of everything, and the value of...... nothin... LoL !

That sure does get confusing, in complicated matters such as the subjects of this thread.
We're looking at: healthcare, rights, capitalism, governance, international markets, etc ...
Really not easy to make heads or tails about this issue.

a reply to: Nothin

You mean not everything is just black or white!!!!???

Some folks can't grasp that concept unfortunately

Cartels are in the wrong business. I would be smuggling in generic drugs instead of ones that turn your customers into deadbeat losers. It would be one of the greatest achievements in US healthcare in 40 years. Totally screw up big pharma if us prescription drug sales fall off a cliff.

originally posted by: Edumakated
The problem is the US subsidizes all the other countries. The pharma companies can't charge market prices in other countries, they just jack up the price in the US to offset the losses.

Um - yes they can change the price in other countries - and they should.

There is no reason the US should have to subsidize the rest of the world on it's own. Now I get that 3rd world nations can't afford more - but other 1st world nations can - and they should be paying their fair share.

a reply to: Stupidsecrets

I would be smuggling in generic drugs instead of ones that turn your customers into deadbeat losers.

It wasn't that long ago that generiv Vicodin was the most prescribed drug in the US. So...

Honestly, I kind of want to start a non-profit pharmaceutical company. If a company could start offering basic drugs for pennies it would force Big Pharma to start making some major changes.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

I would be smuggling in generic drugs instead of ones that turn your customers into deadbeat losers.

It wasn't that long ago that generiv Vicodin was the most prescribed drug in the US. So...

Honestly, I kind of want to start a non-profit pharmaceutical company. If a company could start offering basic drugs for pennies it would force Big Pharma to start making some major changes.

"...Drugs for pennies..." ?
Count me in !

a reply to: Boadicea

Hi Boadi.
Thanks the interesting viewpoints, as you often bring to discussions.

Just wanted to give a head's-up, that the last link is the same as the second one.
Perhaps more like this ?

Big pharmaceutical companies are spending far more on marketing than research.

a reply to: Bluntone22

Personally prefer to grab nothin... LoL !

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: Boadicea

Hi Boadi.
Thanks the interesting viewpoints, as you often bring to discussions.

Thank you!

Just wanted to give a head's-up, that the last link is the same as the second one.
Perhaps more like this ?

Big pharmaceutical companies are spending far more on marketing than research.

And thank you again!!! I'll try to fix that before the edit window runs out...

ETA: Done!