Things that won't happen;- Armageddon

The full title of this theme ought to be “Things that won’t happen in the end-times”.
I’m referring to those anticipated events, featuring in speculations about the end-times, which are based on misinterpretations of what the Bible says.

In this case, I’m looking at Armageddon as a physical battle between human armies.
This expectation is based on a partly literal and partly imaginative reading of the prophecy in which the armies of the kings of the world gather for battle at Armageddon (Revelation ch16 v16).
So any critique needs to be based on a better understanding of the nature of this battle.

This is the New Testament version of the “Last Battle” form of prophecy, found in several places in the Old Testament. The last battle in Old Testament prophecy
The closest model is in Joel, where “all the nations” come together for an armed rendezvous in the valley of Jehoshaphat, so that God can judge them (Joel ch3 vv11-16).
And again in Zechariah, God will bring “all the nations against Jerusalem to battle” (Zechariah ch14 vv1-5).
Once they have been gathered, God defeats them himself.
So this is not a battle between human armies, but a battle between God and the world in general.

The name points us towards the battle of Megiddo (2 Kings ch23 v29), in which God’s champion Josiah was overwhelmed and killed by the armies of Egypt.
This tells us that the function of Armageddon is to reverse the result of Megiddo. God’s provisional defeat is to be wiped out by a final victory.

Considering the account in Revelation, we should notice that NO battle takes place in ch16. If you think there is a battle, then look again. They gather for battle but they don’t fight.
All the kings’ horses and all the kings’ men are left milling around on the potential field of battle for the next two and a half chapters waiting for something to happen. Meanwhile John is announcing and rejoicing over the fall of Babylon.

After that interval, the figure of the Word of God descends from heaven, accompanied by the armies of heaven, and THAT is the battle (ch19 vv11-16)
But this needs to be understood as an image of the Return of Christ, the arrival of the Son of Man, as depicted in the gospels.
We are told that he arrives “on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Matthew ch24 v30).
In short, he comes armed with all the power of God.

On first principles, we should assume that the direct power of God necessarily overrides all human power.
Therefore I do not see that any physical battle could possibly take place on such an occasion.
No man would be able to lift a weapon, no man would be able to move a muscle, no man would be able to exercise an independent will.
The arrival of Christ “in power” would be an instant victory, “in the twinkling of an eye”, making physical fighting redundant.

But what about the graphic picture of the piles of corpses?
That is a metaphor borrowed from Ezekiel ch39.
The function of these metaphors is to present a visual demonstration of the concept “complete and final victory”.

The reality behind the picture would be that the Return of Christ, in itself, is God’s victory, the battle of Armageddon and the fulfilment of the prophecy.

Actually, it happens twice going just from memory....

Gog Magog happens twice....the last one at the end of the Millenium......I guess that has to be in Rev. 19 or 20.....not 22.....twice imo....whatcha think?

a reply to: GBP/JPY
What happens in the Millenium is another issue, and the enthusiasts don't agree with me on that one either.
For the moment, we'd better concentrate on what Revelation ch16 means.

10 4, old buddy...about the description of 1/6th of the attacking army being sent home after God himself showed the world He Himself preserved Israel. With Biblical calamities God removes...removes the mystery of who God is....after this...all in the world know...even the Jewish. Armageddon is about giving the beautiful Jewish a sign ...and they see...
a reply to: DISRAELI

a reply to: DISRAELI
Question is America included in all nation coming up against Jerusalem?

a reply to: JON666
By that stage of Revelation, the world in general is under the control or influence of the Beast, working through the "ten kings". It has become a world persecuting the church, so it's not the same political world as today.
It's difficult to say what form the "attack on God" will take.

a reply to: DISRAELI
Thanks for that answer I had not considered that the US would be controlled by the beast system that would explain the whole sale slaughter of those not taking the mark or not de-neighing Jesus.

Armageddon is the war that will end human rulership on earth.

The prophecy in Revelation says that there are 3 unclean inspired expressions of demons that will gather together all the rulers of mankind against God. Obviously they cannot attack him physically as he is a spirit and beyond their reach in heaven. But they can attack his people.

The rulers of the earth will imagine that God does not exist or does not care. And just as they attacked all of false religion and no god helped them, they will be able to attack God's people and he will not react. But this is not the case. He says that those who attack his people are in effect touching the pupil of his eye to vividly portray the feelings he will have at this assault. If someone sticks their finger into a person's eye they will get a quick reaction.

(Zechariah 2:8, 9) . . .For this is what Jehovah of armies says, who after being glorified has sent me to the nations that were plundering you: ‘Whoever touches you touches the pupil of my eye.  For now I will wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their own slaves.’ And you will certainly know that Jehovah of armies has sent me.



The attack of the Gog of Magog in Ezekiel 38 leads up to Armageddon. Unlike what many claim, that it is instigated by God, it is actually instigated by evil-minded people, being lead by demonic expressions. Satan himself is at the lead against this assault on Jehovah's people earth-wide.

As it is an earth-wide attack by all the nations on God's people everywhere Armageddon is not fought in a single place, for example on the plains of Megiddo, where all of the rulers and their armies will not be able to fit physically.

Armageddon will be God's reaction to Gog of Magog's assault on his people. It is a defensive maneuver to protect them. It will thus protect the righteous who are putting faith in his name, and will vindicate his name as Soverign of the universe. At that time scripture says all mankind will have to know that Jehovah is God when he brings vengeance upon wicked mankind and destroys all wicked human rulership which will lead way to God's kingdom government in Jesus hands to be set up and reign over all mankind from heaven.


As Ezekiel 38 ends:

(Ezekiel 38:21-23) . . .“‘I will call for a sword against him on all my mountains,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘Every man’s sword will be against his own brother. 22 I will bring my judgment against him with pestilence and bloodshed; and I will rain down a torrential downpour and hailstones and fire and sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many peoples with him. 23 And I will certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.’


That this happens at the second coming of Christ, and his revelation in heaven along with all the holy ones and is divine retribution against wicked people who cause tribulation for the righteous we are told:

(2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) . . .This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.

No, Scripture tells us all about the army.it says who will stay out...Saudi and two more....

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: DISRAELI
Question is America included in all nation coming up against Jerusalem?

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
No, Scripture tells us all about the army.it says who will stay out...Saudi and two more....

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: DISRAELI
Question is America included in all nation coming up against Jerusalem?

What does all nations mean to you?
Zechariah 12:3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

originally posted by: SimpleIdea
The attack of the Gog of Magog in Ezekiel 38 leads up to Armageddon. Unlike what many claim, that it is instigated by God, it is actually instigated by evil-minded people, being lead by demonic expressions. Satan himself is at the lead against this assault on Jehovah's people earth-wide.

The under-currents are more subtle than that, because BOTH explanations are true.
God says to Gog "Thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme" (Ezekiel ch38 v10), but he ALSO says "I will put a hook into your mouth and I will bring you forth" (v4) That is, out of his home and into battle.
Joel says the nations will come to the valley, but he ALSO says "I will gather all the nations and bring them" (Joel ch3v2).
This is like "the hardening of Pharaoh's heart". In their conscious minds, they are working out their own evil ideas, just as you say. What they don't know is that this is God leading them into a trap so that he can crush them.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The full title of this theme ought to be “Things that won’t happen in the end-times”.
I’m referring to those anticipated events, featuring in speculations about the end-times, which are based on misinterpretations of what the Bible says.

In this case, I’m looking at Armageddon as a physical battle between human armies.
This expectation is based on a partly literal and partly imaginative reading of the prophecy in which the armies of the kings of the world gather for battle at Armageddon (Revelation ch16 v16).
So any critique needs to be based on a better understanding of the nature of this battle.

This is the New Testament version of the “Last Battle” form of prophecy, found in several places in the Old Testament. The last battle in Old Testament prophecy
The closest model is in Joel, where “all the nations” come together for an armed rendezvous in the valley of Jehoshaphat, so that God can judge them (Joel ch3 vv11-16).
And again in Zechariah, God will bring “all the nations against Jerusalem to battle” (Zechariah ch14 vv1-5).
Once they have been gathered, God defeats them himself.
So this is not a battle between human armies, but a battle between God and the world in general.

The name points us towards the battle of Megiddo (2 Kings ch23 v29), in which God’s champion Josiah was overwhelmed and killed by the armies of Egypt.
This tells us that the function of Armageddon is to reverse the result of Megiddo. God’s provisional defeat is to be wiped out by a final victory.

Considering the account in Revelation, we should notice that NO battle takes place in ch16. If you think there is a battle, then look again. They gather for battle but they don’t fight.
All the kings’ horses and all the kings’ men are left milling around on the potential field of battle for the next two and a half chapters waiting for something to happen. Meanwhile John is announcing and rejoicing over the fall of Babylon.

After that interval, the figure of the Word of God descends from heaven, accompanied by the armies of heaven, and THAT is the battle (ch19 vv11-16)
But this needs to be understood as an image of the Return of Christ, the arrival of the Son of Man, as depicted in the gospels.
We are told that he arrives “on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” (Matthew ch24 v30).
In short, he comes armed with all the power of God.

On first principles, we should assume that the direct power of God necessarily overrides all human power.
Therefore I do not see that any physical battle could possibly take place on such an occasion.
No man would be able to lift a weapon, no man would be able to move a muscle, no man would be able to exercise an independent will.
The arrival of Christ “in power” would be an instant victory, “in the twinkling of an eye”, making physical fighting redundant.

But what about the graphic picture of the piles of corpses?
That is a metaphor borrowed from Ezekiel ch39.
The function of these metaphors is to present a visual demonstration of the concept “complete and final victory”.

The reality behind the picture would be that the Return of Christ, in itself, is God’s victory, the battle of Armageddon and the fulfilment of the prophecy.

Its an allegory,
God is Nature....the final Battle is a Natural Disaster of Global proportions that threatens all of us.

a reply to: one4all
You're not taking account of the fact that the drama is given a happy ending. Not disaster, but near-disaster follwed by triumph.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: one4all
You're not taking account of the fact that the drama is given a happy ending. Not disaster, but near-disaster follwed by triumph.

All doctrinal writings have a common origin....one single storyline produced all know doctrinal writings....this reality is the ONLY ONE VIABLE when we reverse-extrapolate each doctrine and illuminate its birth.

Methinks Noahs Flood redux will be similar to your observation of Near-disaster followed by triumph.....now if People knew the full and complete history of Humanity they would realise that Noah and his group were far from the only survivors of that Global Inundation.

Ever single religious doctrine today carries within it threads of the fabric of the full and complete Tapestry or history of Humanity.....Humanities One-True History is a story of survival and of the events surrounding and leading up to the cataclysm that nearly wiped out all of humanity it is a story written for FUTURE HUMANITY under the deepest form of duress known to Humankind....it is the Ultimate Story of Hope Faith and Triumph.

a reply to: DISRAELI

But what about the graphic picture of the piles of corpses?
That is a metaphor borrowed from Ezekiel ch39.
The function of these metaphors is to present a visual demonstration of the concept “complete and final victory”.

The reality behind the picture would be that the Return of Christ, in itself, is God’s victory, the battle of Armageddon and the fulfilment of the prophecy.

Everything is a metaphor to you. With that in mind, what's the purpose of the great detail in Revelation regarding the seven seals, seven bowls, and seven trumpets? Are you trying to tell us that Jesus was only joking when he told his disciples...

Matthew 24:7

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Last I checked, heaven wasn't divided into separate kingdoms where angels suffer from famines, pestilences, and earthquakes while fighting each other.

While God will intervene and declare it a victory, that's not to say that we won't be participating in it.

a reply to: Deetermined
Not everything, but I do think literal interpretation gets overdone. This is a comparatively modern development, as people have begun looking for interesting details.

Revelation in particular is rich in symbolism which it would be a mistake to take literally. When Jesus is depicted as a lamb with seven eyes and seven horns, or else standing with a sword coming out of his mouth, that's all symbolic, you know. I don't suppose you were here in time for my long Revelation series. Perhaps I should start bumping it.
And yes, I do see the seals, trumpets and bowls as being for John's benefit and the readers' benefit, marking off different stages within the vision, and not things the world in general should be expecting to see or hear in the future.

As for Matthew ch24 v7, that is not Armageddon. As you will see from the next two verses, that all comes at the beginning of the great tribulation. We are talking about the event that brings the tribulation to an end - that is, vv29-31
N.B. Matthew ch 24 vv29-31 describe the return of Christ, as in Revelation ch19, but without any battle.

a reply to: DISRAELI

And yes, I do see the seals, trumpets and bowls as being for John's benefit and the readers' benefit, marking off different stages within the vision, and not things the world in general should be expecting to see or hear in the future.

What?! What you're really saying is that you have absolutely no idea what it means.

As for Matthew ch24 v7, that is not Armageddon. As you will see from the next two verses, that all comes at the beginning of the great tribulation. We are talking about the event that brings the tribulation to an end - that is, vv29-31 N.B. Matthew ch 24 vv29-31 describe the return of Christ, as in Revelation ch19, but without any battle.

What?! LOL! Once again, these statements are contradictory and make absolutely no sense.

You think that when kingdoms start rising up against each other that it's only going to happen during the BEGINNING of the tribulation and won't still be going on when Jesus Christ finally arrives on the scene? The reason Jesus steps in is because it will get out of control. The Bible describes how everything is going to get worse before Jesus saves the day, but by then, everything as we know it on earth DOES come to an END...ie Armageddon.

originally posted by: Deetermined
"And yes, I do see the seals, trumpets and bowls as being for John's benefit and the readers' benefit, marking off different stages within the vision, and not things the world in general should be expecting to see or hear in the future"
What?! What you're really saying is that you have absolutely no idea what it means.

That is not what I'm saying, and if you were reading my words a little more carefully you might realise that.
Actually the expression "seals, trumpets, bowls", is a little ambiguous.
My comment was made about the physical actions of opening seals, blowing trumpets, pouring bowls. THOSE are the events which are purely within the vision, marking off the different stages, and not to be expected in the outward and visible world.
As for the different stages of the vision announced by the seals, trumpets, and bowls, (which is the other possible meaning of the expression), i do have very detailed thoughts on what they mean, as outlined in my Revelation series of 2010-11. I will give you a link to the Index thread, and you can do some work in reading the stuff before you try telling me that I don't have any thoughts on the matter.
Revelation- Project complete

You think that when kingdoms start rising up against each other that it's only going to happen during the BEGINNING of the tribulation and won't still be going on when Jesus Christ finally arrives on the scene? The reason Jesus steps in is because it will get out of control. The Bible describes how everything is going to get worse before Jesus saves the day, but by then, everything as we know it on earth DOES come to an END...ie Armageddon.

I repeat; Matthew ch24 v7 clearly says about the kingdoms rising against kingdoms, "the end is not yet... all this is but the BEGINNING of the birthpangs... THEN the tribulation".
Whereas, if you study carefully the whole sequence of Revelation, as I have done, it is clear that Armageddon comes at the very END of the tribulation, which has been going on through the previous chapters.

To avoid one possible source of confusion, I should point out that the wars themslves are not the tribulation. The persecution of the church is the tribulation, as confirmed when John says to the church of his own time "I share with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance" (Revelation ch1 v9.) He's not sharing with them an experience of war- he's sharing with them the experience of being persecuted.

Already happened. Megiddo is a location in the cosmos, with an earthly location named after it. Not the other way around.

Kingdoms? Solar systems.. Angels? Stars.
Kings? Probably moons? Yeah it's definitely talking about moons.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Whereas, if you study carefully the whole sequence of Revelation, as I have done, it is clear that Armageddon comes at the very END of the tribulation, which has been going on through the previous chapters.

Once again, the problem here is that you've only read the events as posted in the book of Revelation instead of using the whole Bible to guide you, plus everything you don't understand, you label as some kind of metaphor.

Your mention of "piles of bodies" in Ezekiel 39 as being only a metaphor lacks all common sense when viewing the scriptures altogether.

While we both agree that Jesus will use all kinds of supernatural events during the battle of Armageddon, he will also use men as part of this battle and there WILL BE lots of BODIES left in it's wake.

Zechariah 10:3-5

3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the Lord of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.

4 Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together.

5 And THEY shall be as MIGHTY MEN, which tread down their enemies in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the Lord is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded.

Ezekiel 38:21

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

Zechariah 14:13

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

The Bible also shows us that there will be people who survive and this will be when Jesus starts the millennial reign on earth, which is not a metaphor.

Zechariah 14:16-17

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.