Three Questions For Damnationists

Three Questions for Damnationists

I keep coming back to I Corinthians 15 for the answers it holds. Paul states in verse 20 that, “…now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.” This is inclusive language, as the firstfruits stand for the whole crop. This inclusion continues in verse 21: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.” So all are resurrected, but are all saved? Verse 22 gives us a broad hint, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Please note what is NOT said, that all who are in Christ shall be made alive. No, this applies to all, not just to the followers of Christ.

However, there seems to be a delay for those who are not followers of Christ, for it will be a matter of “…every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God…For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (verses 23-26)

Question #1
Paul clearly states that death will be destroyed, and it must be at some time long after the second death in the Lake of Fire. So: How can anyone still be dead and/or in Hell after death is destroyed?

Question #2
At the time death is destroyed, must not the Lake of Fire give up its dead just as the sea had done long before?

Let’s move on to what is perhaps the verse farther in the future than any other in the Bible: “…when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (I Corinthians 15:28)

Question #3
Given the inclusive resurrection Paul hints at, and the certainty that God will be All in all, how can anyone be left out, left dead or left in Hell?

It cannot be so – all must be saved. We are not privy to exactly how God accomplishes this, but all arguments for Hell and damnation must perish on this one certainty: God will be All in all.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Paul states

I would like to ask you a few questions instead.
Who was Paul?
How did he know Jesus?
How many years did he live after Jesus?
How many people did he (Saul aka Paul) kill?

Paul was an agent of the Romans and had an agenda IMO, so I assume Paul is like everyone else and has 0 clue as to what happens after death.
Ignore Paul's "teachings" of fear.

Your questions seem irrelevant in the grand scope of things IMO.
I used to like the corinthians, until I stopped and thought about things instead of just believing everything I read.

Paul can state anything he wants, just like I can state the earth is flat....it still bears no truth.
I have never killed anyone, I can't say the same about Saul aka Paul.

originally posted by: DrumsRfun
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Paul states

I would like to ask you a few questions instead.
Who was Paul?
How did he know Jesus?
How many years did he live after Jesus?
How many people did he (Saul aka Paul) kill?

Paul was an agent of the Romans and had an agenda IMO, so I assume Paul is like everyone else and has 0 clue as to what happens after death.
Ignore Paul's "teachings" of fear.

Your questions seem irrelevant in the grand scope of things IMO.
I used to like the corinthians, until I stopped and thought about things instead of just believing everything I read.

Paul can state anything he wants, just like I can state the earth is flat....it still bears no truth.
I have never killed anyone, I can't say the same about Saul aka Paul.

I assume your questions about Paul are both rhetorical and a way to sidestep my questions. In the grand scheme of things, you will die, and that being so, is it not good to see solid reasons why you will not suffer eternal torment in Hell? Btw, I don't see how Paul teaches fear...he teaches hope, and if he were a Roman agent, he was a poor one. I have seen his status as a Roman agent asserted, but always without proof.

a reply to: DrumsRfun

Paul was pretty good

Your argument that Paul killed people so must be condemned is pretty crazy and off point.
You would might as well suggest historynewsnetwork.org...
those presidents of the US who killed people have no authority?

Anyway, I like Paul’s teachings, seem fairly in line with what Jesus taught

Paul was executed by Rome, your argument is faulty.
I don’t see your argument and any development within it, what’s your issue

a reply to: Lazarus Short

So your argument is God will force salvation on everyone, even those who don’t want salvation?
Is that what I am understanding?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

If you are taking Paul seriously, the questions are irrelevant.

From wiki.

Born:c. 5 AD, Tarsus, Cilicia, Roman Empire
Died:c. 64 or c. 67 AD (aged 61–62 or 64–65), Rome, Roman Empire

He was a Jew but admitted being a Roman citizen. (Acts 22-25)
He had an agenda...how do you go from "kill all of these people" to "oops, I was wrong?"
Can you not see a clear conflict of interest or a guy who lacks leadership abilities?

Think of it like being your democratically elected official or your government, you'd be more suspicious.
Since it is a "man of god", you just want to believe it??

He misled people and killed a bunch of Christians....then he changes and said...oops, I was wrong.
Also....I LOVE YOU, please read my new book.

Thats what it is...he was a snake oil salesman who worked for the Romans.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Paul was executed by Rome, your argument is faulty.

Paul was a pawn, thats my issue.
Lee Harvey Oswald was executed too by Jack Ruby, an American. (think conspiracy, thats my issue)

What he wrote was good, but the guy who wrote it seems like a guy I wouldn't have a lot of faith in.
I know people in the here and now who can do better than that...without killing anyone or persecuting anyone.

Basically, I just think he was a shcmuck.
I have said it before and will say it again.....Paul writing a book in the bible is like Charles Manson writing the bill of rights.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Lazarus Short

So your argument is God will force salvation on everyone, even those who don’t want salvation?
Is that what I am understanding?

God is sovereign and omnipotent, and so since we know that He is willing, He is also able. So His saving all is a lead-pipe cinch, doctored Scriptures to the contrary notwithstanding. Our wants and don't wants have no bearing on what He will do, except that some will need further cleansing, refining and correction in the Lake of Fire.

I have spent over two years in an in-depth study of the KJV, turning over its language to reveal the true message of universal reconciliation. In that time I made notes that grew into a book which now runs to over 240 pages.

a reply to: DrumsRfun

But what did Paul do for the Romans?

originally posted by: DrumsRfun
a reply to: Raggedyman

Paul was executed by Rome, your argument is faulty.

Paul was a pawn, thats my issue.
Lee Harvey Oswald was executed too by Jack Ruby, an American. (think conspiracy, thats my issue)

What he wrote was good, but the guy who wrote it seems like a guy I wouldn't have a lot of faith in.
I know people in the here and now who can do better than that...without killing anyone or persecuting anyone.

Basically, I just think he was a shcmuck.
I have said it before and will say it again.....Paul writing a book in the bible is like Charles Manson writing the bill of rights.

What you leave out is that Paul had a life-changing encounter with his risen Messiah. Your argument is invalid.

Paul basically had a scam that got out of hand. There were a bunch of disparate groups all over the Roman Empire that began to "do their own thing" in the absence of Paul being there personally. You can see it in his letters to these groups as he tries to bring them back into the fold. He used fire and brimstone speeches just like fundamentalist preachers do today. God is gonna get you if you don't watch out! He admonishes them that they better get their act together because Jesus was coming back in their lifetime so they better be ready.

Jesus did not. Paul was wrong. 2,000 years and we're still waiting.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

What you leave out is that Paul had a life-changing encounter with his risen Messiah. Your argument is invalid.

So did Jeffrey Dahmer after killing a bunch of innocent people.
You're argument is now invalid.

a reply to: schuyler


Thanks for calling a spade a spade....I didn't sleep enough yesterday and probably picked the wrong forum and thread to post in.

To get back on topic, if Paul was running for office today, he'd get laughed out of town or voted in with some good ole fake news.

originally posted by: DrumsRfun
a reply to: Lazarus Short

What you leave out is that Paul had a life-changing encounter with his risen Messiah. Your argument is invalid.

So did Jeffrey Dahmer after killing a bunch of innocent people.
You're argument is now invalid.

The Bible states the he who is dead is freed from his sin, so Jeff is free of all that. I don't expect you to understand.

originally posted by: DrumsRfun
a reply to: schuyler

Thanks for calling a spade a spade....I didn't sleep enough yesterday and probably picked the wrong forum and thread to post in.

To get back on topic, if Paul was running for office today, he'd get laughed out of town or voted in with some good ole fake news.

That is not "on topic." The topic is in the OP, but you keep trying to mount a taller soapbox than I have...

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: DrumsRfun
a reply to: schuyler

Thanks for calling a spade a spade....I didn't sleep enough yesterday and probably picked the wrong forum and thread to post in.

To get back on topic, if Paul was running for office today, he'd get laughed out of town or voted in with some good ole fake news.

That is not "on topic." The topic is in the OP, but you keep trying to mount a taller soapbox than I have...

Sure it is. Interesting use of a metaphor considering your user name. In any case, you are hardly objective about the matter. You do not get to enforce your take on this as other people have different ideas and are allowed to express them without your damn permission.

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: DrumsRfun
a reply to: schuyler

Thanks for calling a spade a spade....I didn't sleep enough yesterday and probably picked the wrong forum and thread to post in.

To get back on topic, if Paul was running for office today, he'd get laughed out of town or voted in with some good ole fake news.

That is not "on topic." The topic is in the OP, but you keep trying to mount a taller soapbox than I have...

Sure it is. Interesting use of a metaphor considering your user name. In any case, you are hardly objective about the matter. You do not get to enforce your take on this as other people have different ideas and are allowed to express them without your damn permission.

I was simply reminding a poster that it is bad manners (at least) to derail a thread and then announce the new track is the topic. Other than that, I don't mind posters saying what they will, and I was not "enforcing" anything. BTW, I am still waiting for answers to my three questions - I have been asking for many months now, here and there, and no one has yet to answer.

a reply to: Lazarus Short
We were all in Christ before the foundation of the world slain with him all things will be reconciled back to Him.
tentmaker.org...

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: Lazarus Short
We were all in Christ before the foundation of the world slain with him all things will be reconciled back to Him.
tentmaker.org...

As a longstanding member of the Tent, I fully agree with what you say.

a reply to: JON666

That makes 0 sense.
Can you please explain and make sense in the real world?

I don't know what being IN Christ means and I can tell you, as a straight (thinking) man, I don't want any man or person in me....EVER!
Tell me....what is the "foundation of the world" Mr "I know but everyone else doesn't"