Salvation IS through Reason and Knowledge alone

a reply to: Astrocyte

Discernment for example is an important attribute required to understand and see that humans are not animals and did not evolve from animals either. Becoming aware of those facts, that piece of knowledge or information, can help you search for more truths in a wise manner, not being misled, distracted or wasting one's time with the philosophies and views that are “falsely called ‘knowledge’”* (1Ti 6:20), avoiding and/or rejecting them and seeing them for what they really are (distinguishing fact from fiction and unverified philosophies/ideas by using discernment). Thereby acquiring “an accurate knowledge of truth.” (2Ti 3:6, 7) Rather than sinking deeper and deeper down into the quickmire of human philosophy (see what I mean with the term "human philosophy" in my response in one of your own threads I think; I've talked enough for now to go into that again).

*: KJV says "science" instead of "knowledge", from the Latin "scientia" meaning "knowledge" ("science" and "knowledge" are synonyms, the English word "science" coming from the Latin "scientia", which is the equivalent of the Greek "gnoʹsis").

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: MamaJ

What's the difference between knowledge and wisdom?

Isn't anything a person can know a state of knowledge? What would wisdom be? A special state of knowledge? A non-discursive, non-dialectically driven state of knowledge?

What is knowledge without wisdom?
The answer is ignorance. ‘Through ignorance, man falls; through wisdom, man redeems himself“ MPH

originally posted by: crowdedskies

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: MamaJ

What's the difference between knowledge and wisdom?

For me, it is a very big difference. Knowledge and wisdom are the two polarities at the higher level of the Tree of Life.

Not sure if that was what MamaJ had in mind but I certainly would have considered Wisdom to be more apt because Knowledge and Reason are one and the same from an archetypal point of view.

Not true. "Wisdom" is the meaning of Chokmah, the Sephirah at the head of the Pillar of Mercy and "Intelligence" (meaning Reason) is the meaning of Binah, the Sephirah at the head of the polar-opposite Pillar of Judgement. "Knowledge" is Daath, the non-Sephirah representing the ontological chasm being subjectivity and objectivity. It is placed in the Tree of Life (Etz Chayim) after Binah and before Chesed, the first Sephirah of Construction.

Knowledge is NOT synonymous with reason. It is what results from the interaction of reason with experience.

originally posted by: micpsi

originally posted by: crowdedskies

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: MamaJ

What's the difference between knowledge and wisdom?

For me, it is a very big difference. Knowledge and wisdom are the two polarities at the higher level of the Tree of Life.

Not sure if that was what MamaJ had in mind but I certainly would have considered Wisdom to be more apt because Knowledge and Reason are one and the same from an archetypal point of view.

Not true. "Wisdom" is the meaning of Chokmah, the Sephirah at the head of the Pillar of Mercy and "Intelligence" (meaning Reason) is the meaning of Binah, the Sephirah at the head of the polar-opposite Pillar of Judgement. "Knowledge" is Daath, the non-Sephirah representing the ontological chasm being subjectivity and objectivity. It is placed in the Tree of Life (Etz Chayim) after Binah and before Chesed, the first Sephirah of Construction.

Knowledge is NOT synonymous with reason. It is what results from the interaction of reason with experience.

I take a practical look at the tree . I am well aware of the dogma; of Chockmah, Binah and Daath and the assignment of "Knowledge" to Daath. However, for practical purposes I assign Knowledge (in the general sense of the word) to the left pillar because ,in society ,we more commonly use the word knowledge to refer to the end result of discrimination, analysing, reasoning , etc.

I hope that makes sense . No need to be too dogmatic here. How would you describe Daath in French (just making a point). Also, Binah means Understanding as you well know.

I would be happier if a different english word was used for Daath . It is already too much to have to explain to students that this is NOT intellectual knowledge ; neither is it knowledge based on beliefs , theories , thought or anything such things. It is a very special kind of knowledge. Perhaps, it is good that this word is used as it is enpugh to send people on the wrong track.

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: Astrocyte

Wisdom. Wisdom is the ability to put knowledge to work, or to use it, the intelligent application of learning. A person might have considerable knowledge but not know how to use it because of lacking wisdom. ... “Wisdom is the prime thing,” for without it knowledge is of little value. (Pr 4:7; 15:2) ...

...
Wisdom (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2)

The Biblical sense of wisdom lays emphasis on sound judgment, based on knowledge and understanding; the ability to use knowledge and understanding successfully to solve problems, avoid or avert dangers, attain certain goals, or counsel others in doing so. It is the opposite of foolishness, stupidity, and madness, with which it is often contrasted.​—De 32:6; Pr 11:29; Ec 6:8.

...

Wisdom implies a breadth of knowledge and a depth of understanding, these giving the soundness and clarity of judgment characteristic of wisdom. The wise man ‘treasures up knowledge,’ has a fund of it to draw upon. (Pr 10:14) While “wisdom is the prime thing,” the counsel is that “with all that you acquire, acquire understanding.” (Pr 4:5-7) Understanding (a broad term that frequently embraces discernment) adds strength to wisdom, contributing greatly to discretion and foresight, also notable characteristics of wisdom. Discretion implies prudence and may be expressed in caution, self-control, moderation, or restraint. ...

Just to follow up on some of that and in particular something mentioned at 2:06 in the song about guarding your heart...


It would have probably been a bit too much if I had tried to find a nice spot to fit those into my original commentary anyway. But those songs elaborate a bit on the line at 2:06 in the song about guarding your heart. And since it relates to the topic of wisdom I thought it best to repeat some of that as well.

I love this scene btw, as it relates to that difference between knowledge and wisdom that I've been elaborating on:

a reply to: micpsi

Man that Kaballah-stuff is convoluted and vague. I seriously doubt its ability to enlighten* anyone about reality and things that are true/factual/certain/correct, without error. (*: bring insight and understanding to)

A warning plus some advice from the Bible:

“A fool will believe anything.”—PROVERBS 14:15, TODAY’S ENGLISH VERSION.

How can you protect yourself from the types of people that the Bible calls “profitless talkers” and “deceivers of the mind”? (Titus 1:10) Once you are familiar with some of their tricks, you are in a better position to evaluate any message or information that comes your way. Here are some ways to do this.

Be selective: A completely open mind could be likened to a pipe that lets just anything flow through it—even sewage. No one wants a mind contaminated with poison. Solomon, a king and educator in ancient times, warned: “Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.” (Proverbs 14:15) So we need to be selective. We need to scrutinize whatever is presented to us, deciding what to accept and what to reject.

However, we do not want to be so narrow that we refuse to consider facts that can improve our thinking. How can we find the right balance? By adopting a standard with which to measure new information.

Use discernment: Discernment is “acuteness of judgment.” It is “the power or faculty of the mind by which it distinguishes one thing from another.” A person with discernment perceives subtleties of ideas or things and has good judgment.

Using discernment, we will be able to recognize those who are merely using “smooth talk and complimentary speech” in order to “seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (Romans 16:18) Discernment enables you to discard irrelevant information or misleading facts and distinguish the substance of a matter. But how can you discern when something is misleading?

Put information to the test: “Beloved ones,” said John, a first-century Christian teacher, “do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions.” (1 John 4:1) Some people today are like sponges; they soak up whatever they come across. It is all too easy to absorb whatever is around us.

But it is far better for each individual personally to choose what he will feed his mind. It is said that we are what we eat, and this can apply to food for both the body and the mind. No matter what you are reading or watching or listening to, test to see whether it is convoluted and vague or is truthful (and verified by the facts, the evidence).

Moreover, if we want to be fair-minded, we must be willing to subject our own opinions to continual testing as we take in new information. We must realize that they are, after all, opinions. Their trustworthiness depends on the validity of our facts, on the quality of our reasoning, and on the standards or values that we choose to apply.

“We know we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he knows something, he does not yet know it as he should know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him.”—1 Corinthians 8:1-3. (regarding the last sentence you may want to read up on the different shades of meaning for the verb "knowing" as explained somewhere in the middle of my first comment in response to Astrocyte).

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: Astrocyte

... Rather than sinking deeper and deeper down into the quickmire of human philosophy (see what I mean with the term "human philosophy" in my response in one of your own threads I think; I've talked enough for now to go into that again).

Actually, I just realized, it's in this thread instead. More in this comment and this comment.

The only problem with your logic, is the very first thought you should have thought, but did not have: Why is salvation nessecary?

It's not. Youre making up a construct for illegitimate reasons. Your arbitrary need for salvation is not fundamental, not universal nor does it have any application in any circumstances other than the scenario created by you, by mans own weakened heartless doubtful guilt-ridden mind.

a reply to: AnodeOrCathode
Look real hard and the one that thinks it needs saving will never be found!!

Knowledge starts with the knower.... and there is no knower.... and no thing is known.

No separation..... just happening..... just this.

Reason and Knowledge should lead to the realization that salvation stems from redemption.

a reply to: whereislogic

No this was a very beautiful response as my upbringing roots are founded in four square Pentecostal beliefs and learning the greek language for biblical approaches helped me greatly to make sense of the application and function of these.
But as For now It is what we choose to decide to do that effects how much of a transformed life begins with a renewed mind.

a reply to: AnodeOrCathode

Am I trying to win converts or followers into the religion Of I?

No I'm simply offering my understanding that truth can only come from a place of being wrong.
The process of redemption is the personal process alone. And while this is my personal process,
it is not that far from the idea taught by many philosophers, saints, poets, mystics, monks etc.
You expect us all to just live our life as though we are incapable of redepmtion but why do we
need it you are correct. However it is not a matter of why we needed salvation, but rather
that we might save each other from the cruel and animal natures (unconscious sin) and a
willingness of WIll to act in good faith and sound mind making those conscious sin actions.
Which is a way which leads to death.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Knowledge gives you the reason to act upon, where as wisdom is the application of knowledge.
Our actions are governed by what we know. And we are wise when we follow so.

Many Are They Who Would Beg To Beg To Differ.
I Have My Own Experience... Salvation Is Won By Letting Go. However... I Prefer The Way Of Reflection For My Judges. The Dumber You Are The More They Torment Or Intrigue. Beware...
It Is Not Wisdom Nor Knowledge Nor Understanding But Rather A Truth. Collect Those As Often As You Can. They Are Essential To Experience.

originally posted by: Pinocchio
Many Are They Who Would Beg To Beg To Differ.
I Have My Own Experience... Salvation Is Won By Letting Go. However... I Prefer The Way Of Reflection For My Judges. The Dumber You Are The More They Torment Or Intrigue. Beware...
It Is Not Wisdom Nor Knowledge Nor Understanding But Rather A Truth. Collect Those As Often As You Can. They Are Essential To Experience.

I agree that salvation comes from letting go

However, there is only one truth.....any collected truth is merely a belief or opinion.

# man I have returned and realised I never replied hahaha.


Many things have changed since…

True knowledge is the awareness of events within the universe, be it within the self, the environment, and the spirit, unclouded by the human condition.

True wisdom is realizations of the truth of ourselves' emotions dictating our actions and faith, and the liberation thereof through earnest meditation and earnest experience of life.

"Salvation" or true happiness can be achieved and perpetuated when one has the strength to observe the horror and wonder of the universe with equanimous regard as neither good nor evil, desirable nor aversive, but are just such things that shall arise, and then shall pass.

I have found that reason alone eventually brings you to a dead end. The limitless realm is snared by reason and its self-inflicted prison of limitations.

a reply to: spacemonk

Reason and Knowledge, by themselves, won't lead to salvation. Compassion is also a key ingredient, for you can be knowledgeable and rational, and just be a beast and a monster.

And once you learn how to be compassionate, you still need to take a further step: to be able to transmit your knowledge to others, for a knowledge that is private and it is not shared with others is no useful knowledge at all.

Light to you.