Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
one questio i always ask of people claiming " FDR knew "

" why not mount a defence " ?

i never get a coherent answer

They never know the actual history of Japanese-American relations, they just like to shout 'False flag!' a lot.

a reply to: ignorant_ape

Dear ATS Readers, Writers,

Hello ape... I have an answer; whether you think it coherent or not is up to you...

You seem to miss a big part of the whole thing about the article...

Due to America's isolationist feelings at the time; the infamous "they" needed a large distraction, something that would "shock" the nation into being easily manipulated into another terrible war. One that was to save Europe from Hitlers grip.
Hitler wasn't taking the bait offered him. So, it was get Japan to make the first "visible" wrong doing, in the eyes of the American public.

The SAME tactic was used pre 9-11, and in the build up and implementation of the PNAC Plan....

The "white papers" for the PNAC Plan stated how they needed another Pearl Harbour to shock the nation into action once again.

It worked perfectly.. and here we are 18+ years down the road... still trying to preserve the empire that was established post WW2.

And dealing with all of that "blowback" ..

The PNAC committee was disbanded some time ago.. as they had achieved ALL of their goals.

It required that the USA become much more aggressive and antagonistic to keep the empire going for another century.

I think that after 18+ years of war, war, and more war.... one can argue that they followed that directive to the letter.

It tries to come to the end game now.... another terrible war.. eliminating the "competition" once again.

Pravdaseeker

a reply to: Lumenari

Wonder who is making money off of all of this?

I think this is bigger than money, I think the hidden hand was right, this is spiritual warfare!

It’s a shame the powers that be didn’t trust they had a legitimate reason to enter war, didn’t trust the American people to listen to them, and trusted only they would do what’s best without the truth present.
That trust still is missing, and in today’s political climate those shouting about all kinds of things to be afraid of have yet to earn the people’s trust.
If anything we can thank them for teaching the valuable lesson to not blindly trust authority.
a reply to: pravdaseeker

It's well established that FDR wanted to drag the US into the war, and was looking for an excuse.

One thing that I find very convenient is how the Pacific Fleet's battleships got hammered by the Japanese, but the aircraft carriers were conveniently out at sea and weren't attacked.

By the time World War 2 came around, battleships were an outdated technology. There were few major naval engagements, and from the very beginning of the Pacific theater air power was the key to winning battles. In that sense, I find it very convenient that the ships the US Navy lost were its most expendable ones, albeit ships that would incite a lot of passion.

Those battleships were literally more valuable to FDR sitting at the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

originally posted by: Lumenari
a reply to: pravdaseeker

World War 1.

Americans didn't want to get into it until the Lusitania was attacked.

We have found out since that the Lusitania carried a vast amount of ammunition on it and would have been considered a legitimate target for the Germans.

Germany even posted in the New York Times a warning to Americans to not be on the ship because it was carrying ammunition so they were going to sink it.

False Flag One.

World War 2.

America didn't want to get into the fray until Pearl Harbor.

Then we signed up in droves to get 'er done.

Referencing your OP.

False Flag Two.

Viet Nam.

Americans didn't want to get into the conflict.

Then we had the Gulf of Tonkin (or the USS Maddox incident).

False flag Three.

Then we had 911.

Wonder who is making money off of all of this?

~pondering~

I don't think you understand what a false flag is.

but it's ok, many people seem to misunderstand it.

in case you were wondering "A false flag is a covert operation designed to deceive; the deception creates the appearance of a particular party, group, or nation being responsible for some activity, disguising the actual source of responsibility."

So for example, Japanese attacked pearl harbor and Japanese were to blame which means it was not a false flag.

Now as far as 9/11 I believe that would be more of a false flag. Inside job that was blame on another party for the sole purpose of deceiving the American public.


Unless you are saying the Japanese did not attack pearl harbor but are being blamed for it then I apologize.

a reply to: jidnum

The US Navy had broken the Japanese Naval Code, they knew the attack was coming.

That is why their Carriers all put to sea late on a Saturday night in peace time.

Claiming after the event that it was a Surprise! raises this event into a false flag.

Thousands died so a few would reap previously unheard of financial gains.

The US started the war with an oil embargo, plain and simple.

Everything else is just window dressing.

P

a reply to: pheonix358

Still not s false flag. There was no deception to place the blame on a 3rd party that had no involvement. Read the definition again.

In order for pearl harbor to be a false flag a different country would have had to attack pearl harbor other than japan then we turn around and blame japan.

a reply to: jidnum

Dear ATS Readers, Writers,

Hello jidnum.. I see what you mean....

I think a lot of people consider it a false flag upon the citizens of the USA...since so many got sacrificed, and the government played dumb and surprised. Probably so that the ability to break the code was not divulged, is my guess.

Yeah, Japan did the attack and got the blame....

But, it has become fairly obvious nowadays that the government could have
at least gotten a warning out, at the last minute maybe...to allow ships to at least go to General Quarters, and get their ships in water tight configuration... Circle William I think they call it. But this would have let Japan know they knew ahead of time where the attack was coming.

Perhaps not a false flag per definition, but most assuredly a very dodgy chain of events, that cost a lot of lives.

My aunt who lost a brother at Pearl harbour....went to her grave hating the Japanese with a very strong hatred.

Perhaps if she knew the real story, her hatred of a people might have been a bit more on the sane level.

Pravdaseeker

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: jidnum

The US Navy had broken the Japanese Naval Code, they knew the attack was coming.

That is why their Carriers all put to sea late on a Saturday night in peace time.

Claiming after the event that it was a Surprise! raises this event into a false flag.

Thousands died so a few would reap previously unheard of financial gains.

The US started the war with an oil embargo, plain and simple.

Everything else is just window dressing.

P

If they had known then the whole Pacific Fleet would have sortied well before dawn. They did not. The three carriers in the Pacific were at sea, one delivering planes to Wake Island (Enterprise), one delivering planes to Midway (Lexington) and the final one (Saratoga) was entering San Diego harbour to embark her air group after a refit. They did not therefore put to sea the night before, they were already gone, in some cases days before.
I know that this is very hard for some people to understand, but carriers were not yet seen as the fists of the US Fleet. The battleships were and if you think that FDR, a former Secretary of the Navy, would have risked the battlewaggons of the US Navy then you do not know the man or indeed the times. Even the Japanese, who created the First Air Fleet, better known as Kido Butai, were still building battleships for the great climactic battle that they thought would win the war for them.
Carrier technology was moving very, very quickly, was imperfectly understood by many and above all carriers were still seen as the eyes of the fleet - ships that could fix the location of the enemy, perhaps slow them down and above all create friendly skies for the battleships to engage them.
Above all else, Purple had been broken - the diplomatic code, not the IJN's code. JN25, the IJN's code, had been broken, then they changed their codes and it had not yet been rebroken at Pearl Harbour.

originally posted by: pheonix358
The US Navy had broken the Japanese Naval Code, they knew the attack was coming.

JN-25, the top Japanese code, was less than 10% broken in December of 1941. Even at Midway it would be only around 20% broken.

That is why their Carriers all put to sea late on a Saturday night in peace time.

Where'd you get this from? Enterprise had left on November 29th, long before the Japanese sailed for Pearl Harbor, and Lexington left for Midway on December 5th. Saratoga had just completed overhaul in Washington and was embarking her air group in San Diego.

The rest of the carriers had been in the Atlantic for some time.

ETA: I see AngryCymraeg addressed these inaccuracies already.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I not sure where you get 10%.

It appears they have recently declassified Magic and it apparently used the same 26 character alphabet as the the other Polish analyzed machines.

I could do better than that with the Phaistos disc.

2^3 code solutions takes longer to sort than 2+3.

originally posted by: Slichter
I not sure where you get 10%.

From the people who actually worked on it, they have discussed it previously.