How do traits evolve? Where do traits come from?

How did traits evolve? How does a beneficial traits evolve? How does any trait evolve? Where does the ability for random traits to evolve that just happen to benefit the organism to survive in an environment?

How does the ability for parts of an eye evolve? Or parts of molecular machines? Or parts of lungs, toes, toenails a hand with fingers? Where does this ability come from and how can it occur without pre existing intelligent design?

When I get dealt a full house in a game of poker, it's because intelligence designed a deck of cards and the rules to a game of poker. When I roll a pair of dice, it's because intelligence designed a pair of dice that allows you to roll a 2-12.

Why would a beneficial trait evolve at all? Where did this ability come from? Did these things just poof into existence?

If this information doesn't pre exist, then how did these beneficial traits and parts evolve at the right time for no reason? It's just makes no sense. The fact that people believe in this fantasy is mind boggling.

Look at sickle cell mutation.



People try to say this is a copying error. An error, really?

An error that occurs at just the right time and at the right point and it helps those with malaria? That doesn't sound like an error, that sounds like design.

Again, if information and design to not pre exist in DNA, then where does the ability to evolve any traits or parts that benefit the organism come from?

DNA is clear evidence of intelligent design.

The sequence of objects or symbols don't have any meaning unless intelligence gives it meaning. This symbol * and this symbol / isn't encoded with any information. When intelligence says the sequence */ and /* has start and stop functions for what we will call C comments, then intelligence has encoded these symbols with information.

Again, / and * don't encode their sequence with information that can be decoded any more than ACTG can in DNA.

The sequence has to be encoded with information by intelligence. How can anything evolve if the sequence isn't first given meaning by intelligence?

a reply to: neoholographic

For every successful mutation there have been countless failures/errors. More DNA changes are harmful than being beneficial. The harmful ones are then weeded out by natural selection.

Intelligent design proponents like you only see the successful mutations and then arrive at the erroneous assumption that those mutations could not have happened by chance.

a reply to: neoholographic

Survival of the fittest is the constant struggle in life in general, but it actually breaks down to a cellular level we can actually observe.

You would think by now this god would just appear and set things straight, but nope, so we have to continue to abide by the laws of physics, physiology, and evolution.

If god would just prove us wrong, would be so easy and settled

Not a great place to ask questions like that
Had an evolutionist tell me the other day on here that nails growing long was evidence of evolution and then learning to type on a keyboard was also proof of evolution
True story

a reply to: Raggedyman

god tells me you are lying, and being facetious.

Who should I believe?

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: neoholographic

For every successful mutation there have been countless failures/errors. More DNA changes are harmful than being beneficial. The harmful ones are then weeded out by natural selection.

Intelligent design proponents like you only see the successful mutations and then arrive at the erroneous assumption that those mutations could not have happened by chance.

How can successful mutations occur without pre existing information? People who push a natural interpretation of evolution act like the mutation, which is just a copying error at times, is more important than the code that's being mutated. Are these magic mutations that just happen for no reason? That makes no sense.

Some of these mutations occur at the right time and this is obvious design like with sickle. cell. When Malaria becomes widespread, a mutation is triggered at the right point to code for Valine instead of Glutamic acid.

How can the errors that occur when the code is being copied create the code that's being copied?

I know it sounds silly, but it's the natural interpretation of evolution in a nutshell.

a reply to: neoholographic

How can the errors that occur when the code is being copied create the code that's being copied?

Once the error occurs, the code has been changed?

I mean, you kind of asked yourself a question, then answered it in the same sentence.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: neoholographic

How can the errors that occur when the code is being copied create the code that's being copied?

Once the error occurs, the code has been changed?

I mean, you kind of asked yourself a question, then answered it in the same sentence.

The code has changed but it didn't create the code that's being changed.

That's like me accidentally pouring bleach into the washing machine and it changes the colors of my jeans. I now have jeans with spots on them BUT THEY'RE STILL JEANS! The accident with the bleach didn't create the instructions to make a pair of jeans!

This is how asinine a natural interpretation of evolution is.

a reply to: neoholographic

so where did the original code come from?

Empirical evidence required.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: Raggedyman

god tells me you are lying, and being facetious.

Who should I believe?

I don’t care who you believe, not my business
Please, go ahead and believe your god, naught to do with me, just related what someone said to me on another thread

Perhaps the universe is a simulation and we are all characters in a game being controlled by some individual, and their mistakes/choices in our journey affect our outcomes?

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: neoholographic

so where did the original code come from?

Empirical evidence required.

There's growing evidence that connects DNA to Quantum Biology and Quantum Information.

Quantum Entanglement Holds DNA Together, Say Physicists

www.technologyreview.com...

DNA can discern between two quantum states, research shows

www.sciencedaily.com...

With DNA, you clearly have a medium whose sequence is encoded with information. You can even use different nucleotide basis, even synthetic ones and get different storage capacity and encode the same information in it's sequence.

There's no way that the medium can encode information in it's sequence and regulate that information within non coding sequences without intelligence.

So a code has to pre exist and and DNA is the most powerful information storage medium that we know of. All of the information is encoded on DNA from the simplest life form we know of to create all of the life that we see.

So when I talk about mutations, I just don't talk in terms of beneficial and harmful mutations but essential mutations. Mutations are needed to change the sequence that's encoded with information. These changes occur based on the environment and organism adapt.

A natural interpretation of evolution is a Field of Dreams. It's a fantasy.

How can mutations create encoded information on a sequence of DNA? When a sequence occurs, the information encoded on it's sequence is expressed.

If you have the alphabet and mutations occur and you get, "Go West", the mutation didn't give the words Go West meaning, intelligence that encoded the sequence gave it meaning.

Again, think of how crazy this sounds. People are saying mutations encoded a DNA sequence with information when the sequence changes!!! That makes no sense.

These sequences are designed to adapt to different environments. We can look at all of the different extremophiles that occur and we can see this. This is a pre existing sequence that's encoded with information to survive in different environments. Look at sickle cell again.



The top sequence is encoded with information that expresses a normal blood cell. When Malaria spreads in a population, a specific mutation occurs at a specific point. Glutamic acid changes to Valine and a sickle cell is expressed that protects people from Malaria. Here's more from the CDC.

On the contrary, individuals who are carriers for the sickle cell disease (with one sickle gene and one normal hemoglobin gene, also known as sickle cell trait) have some protective advantage against malaria. As a result, the frequencies of sickle cell carriers are high in malaria-endemic areas.

www.cdc.gov...

This is design! When x(malaria) occurs then y(a mutation) occurs at a specific point that gives carriers of malaria a protective advantage. Where's the evolution of information? Here's more.

The book Information Theory, Evolution and the Origin of Life is written by Hubert Yockey, the foremost living specialist in bioinformatics. The publisher is Cambridge University press. Yockey rigorously demonstrates that the coding process in DNA is identical to the coding process and mathematical definitions used in Electrical Engineering. This is not subjective, it is not debatable or even controversial. It is a brute fact:

“Information, transcription, translation, code, redundancy, synonymous, messenger, editing, and proofreading are all appropriate terms in biology. They take their meaning from information theory (Shannon, 1948) and are not synonyms, metaphors, or analogies.” (Hubert P. Yockey, Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, Cambridge University Press, 2005)

evo2.org...

How can all of these parts be expressed that just work together to carry out a function just randomly occur? You have molecular machines with hundreds of different parts. How can random anything produce parts that work together to carry out specific functions?

Intelligent Design is clear but belief in Materialism allows people to accept the fantasy that is a natural interpretation of evolution.

a reply to: neoholographic

I don't think I have a satisfactory answer to your question, but I think I have an example of what you described.

I think there can be errors that eventually add up to color variations, and they do not change the actual structure. Regardless of the color they will still be jeans.

Bleach on the jeans don't just change the color, they weaken the material so with time, other traits will develop in the fabric, maybe even cause the material to disintegrate.

A mistake in the construction, a missed link in the stitching, will eventually change the pattern, which if duplicated over time, could change the shape and the general look of the material, to the point where they no longer resemble jeans at all.

I think some of the adaptations that occur is not so much due to a progressive evolution, as much as it is a reactive survival response, which I think has the ability to return to the original state as the need arises with time.

Purely my viewpoint.

a reply to: neoholographic

Oh boy are you in for a ride!

SnF

New studies indicate that rapid evolutionary changes occur as a response to environmental changes.... not just by random mutation and natural selection. I'm convinced that DNA is "programmed" to change environments as well. If you look at the history of life on this planet, the earliest fossil life, single celled organisms as old as 3.5 billion years literally Terra-formed this rocky planet from one with virtually no oxygen in the atmosphere and the oceans to one with abundant oxygen. Oxygen is essential for multi-cellular organisms capable of autonomous movement because of the amount of energy produced when it is "burned".

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: neoholographic

For every successful mutation there have been countless failures/errors. More DNA changes are harmful than being beneficial. The harmful ones are then weeded out by natural selection.

Intelligent design proponents like you only see the successful mutations and then arrive at the erroneous assumption that those mutations could not have happened by chance.

Trying to figure out how you can understand that there are way more bad mutations than good, but that somehow the good make it through and make evolution possible.

?

Logic dictates that the good ones would never make it through. Reason it through logically. You can see that your statement makes no sense.

I know a lot of people, not all, but a lot of people can be insulting on both sides of the issue. I have seen many people who use faulty reasoning like the one you show above, and they tend to use insulting and inflammatory names that just turns people off.

What if it was you that was living in the fairy-tale make believe world? I ask that not to insult you, but ask you to reason on the insults you like to spew a lot, and take a good introspective look at your belief system. The OP makes some outstanding arguments, which you did not refute in the slightest.

originally posted by: Eyestosee

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: neoholographic

For every successful mutation there have been countless failures/errors. More DNA changes are harmful than being beneficial. The harmful ones are then weeded out by natural selection.

Intelligent design proponents like you only see the successful mutations and then arrive at the erroneous assumption that those mutations could not have happened by chance.

Trying to figure out how you can understand that there are way more bad mutations than good, but that somehow the good make it through and make evolution possible.

?

Logic dictates that the good ones would never make it through. Reason it through logically. You can see that your statement makes no sense.

I know a lot of people, not all, but a lot of people can be insulting on both sides of the issue. I have seen many people who use faulty reasoning like the one you show above, and they tend to use insulting and inflammatory names that just turns people off.

What if it was you that was living in the fairy-tale make believe world? I ask that not to insult you, but ask you to reason on the insults you like to spew a lot, and take a good introspective look at your belief system. The OP makes some outstanding arguments, which you did not refute in the slightest.

Excellent points and these facts are hard to refute. You would have to show that a medium can encode its sequence with information then create the machinery needed to decode the information encoded on it's sequence. It's pure magic that can't happen.

originally posted by: Blarneystoner
New studies indicate that rapid evolutionary changes occur as a response to environmental changes.... not just by random mutation and natural selection. I'm convinced that DNA is "programmed" to change environments as well. If you look at the history of life on this planet, the earliest fossil life, single celled organisms as old as 3.5 billion years literally Terra-formed this rocky planet from one with virtually no oxygen in the atmosphere and the oceans to one with abundant oxygen. Oxygen is essential for multi-cellular organisms capable of autonomous movement because of the amount of energy produced when it is "burned".

Very good points!

This is clearly intelligent design.

These changes occur based on environmental pressures. Some of these mutations show up when needed, not in any random way. They show up and a change occurs in the code that will be a benefit to the organism. Why or how would any beneficial change occur randomly?

When Malaria spreads throughout a population a specific mutation occurs at a specific point that changes Glutamic Acid to Valine. This change gives a survival advantage to those with Malaria. You don't get Leucine mutating into Histidine or Histidine mutating into Valine. You get a specific mutation at a specific point that gives a population where Malaria is spreading a protective advantage against Malaria. There's no evolution needed just a change in the code at the exact point needed to respond to the change in the environment.

Here's another example.

When you want to bold a text when you write a post, it looks something like this. [b][/b] You then put the text in the middle. The symbols [/] don't mean anything by themselves when it comes to the code. Intelligence encoded the sequence of these symbols with information that allows you to bold a portion of your text.

That's not where it ends, because intelligence then has to create the machinery(computer) to read the information you encoded on the sequence of symbols.

This is what intelligence can do. We can take anything and encode information in it's sequence.

I can do it with cards. I can say, if you see 4 kings on my kitchen table, meet me at Subway on MLK but if you see 3 Jacks, meet me at Boston Market Downtown on 4th St.

I have encoded a sequence of cards with information that can be decoded by an intelligent mind or machinery created by an intelligent mind that can decode the information encoded in the sequence of the cards.

In order to accept the fantasy that is a natural interpretation of evolution, you would have to say the medium encoded its sequence with information!! That's just crazy. That would be saying the 4 kings encoded themselves with the information to meet at Subway on MLK and the cards also created the machinery to read the information encoded on the sequence.

It would be like the symbols [/] encoded its sequence with the information to make a text bold and these symbols also built computers to read this information LOL.

The sequence in DNA, which are made of four nitrogen-containing nucleobases cytosine [C], guanine [G], adenine [A] or thymine [T], are like the 4 kings or the symbols [/]. They're the medium used by intelligence. Intelligence then encodes instructions in the sequence.

With DNA, you have coding and non coding sequences. Sequences that regulate the expression of coding sequences. Sequences that tell the machinery when to stop and start, where to splice and also does error correction. Then the polypeptide chain has to be transported to the right place where complex folding occurs.

So with DNA, you have code, on top of code, on top of code and you have to have machinery that can be made up of 100's of different parts, that magically just work together to carry out a specific function. How can anything random create different parts that work together to carry out a specific function?

Like I said, it's a fantasy.

a reply to: neoholographic

You get a specific mutation at a specific point that gives a population where Malaria is spreading a protective advantage against Malaria. There's no evolution needed just a change in the code at the exact point needed to respond to the change in the environment.

How does the information needed propagate between individual organisms before exposure to malaria or other environmental pressures?

Maybe this....?

Biophoton Communication, can cells talk using light

a reply to: neoholographic

How can anything random create different parts that work together to carry out a specific function?

A New Study Examines How Consciousness in the Universe is Scale Invariant and Implies an Event Horizon of the Human Brain

Consciousness is scale invariant.....

It begs the question... did the universe give rise to consciousness? or did consciousness give rise to the universe...