Brexit Delayed. Another defeat for Johnson

a reply to: eletheia
I was and am a Eurosceptic, even voted UKIP once, but before the referendum I tried to ignore the media spin (from both sides) and do my own research, while discussing the issues with any of my family or friends who were interested.

I concluded that on balance the UK and Europe (and the world in general) would be a better place if we remained in, so that's how I voted. I realize now that, despite my efforts, it was mostly a vote in ignorance because many of the issues which have now been done to death, like the Irish border, had not been properly aired.

As you say, there was spin from both sides during the campaign (but it was Leave who violated the spending restrictions). A detailed analysis of the real economic and political consequences was sorely lacking, not least because most of the politicians didn't have a clue about them.

We are generally better informed three and a half years down the line. For a long time I apposed the idea of second vote as undermining faith in democracy. Now it strikes me as the only fair and reasonable next step. If such a vote went for Stay, no doubt there would be wide discontent, but arguably it would be a better informed democratic result. If it went for Leave, the remainers would have to shut up and accept that the nation made an informed decision.

originally posted by: EvilAxis

We are generally better informed three and a half years down the line.

True and better informed too of the intransigence and uncompromising attitude

of the EU. Who on earth would want to stay in a 'club /union' that needs to tie

and chain you in? If it is such a wonderful club we wouldn't want to be leaving.

For a long time I apposed the idea of second vote as undermining faith in democracy.

That IS exactly what it is.......... There cant be a 'second' anything' before a

first has been implemented therefor it is undermining democracy.

Now it strikes me as the only fair and reasonable next step. If such a vote went for Stay, no doubt there would be wide discontent, but arguably it would be a better informed democratic result. If it went for Leave, the remainers would have to shut up and accept that the nation made an informed decision.

Personally I think if there is a second referendum democracy is DEAD.

I also think there would be a larger majority for leave...... and even then the

remainers would NOT accept the result, already they are talking about giving

the vote to 16 year olds, who are......

#unable to marry without their parents consent:

# not allowed to drink or buy alcohol:

# not allowed to drive:

# are still being educated:

But hey!!! Give them the vote!! Might just get the remainers past the post.

The Westminster system is not designed for popular referendums. The referendum should never have occurred, it has no legal "teeth". The issue is from where I stand the fact that there is not the numbers in parliament to implement the changes required. You guys need to go to an election. If those who wish to leave campaign on that fact and get the required numbers in the house to pull it off, then Britain leaves. If those who wish to remain get more numbers in the house then Britain remains. If the numbers are still too close and it remains deadlocked, then maybe the sentiment is too close for such a major thing to be pulled off at the moment. Forget it and revisit it in 10 years time. This is how parliamentary democracy works, for better or worse.

originally posted by: eletheia
Who on earth would want to stay in a 'club /union' that needs to tie and chain you in?

The EU's strength is derived from the unity of its member nations, so of course it's not in its interest to make it attractive to leave, but that's not why attempts to leave have so far failed. Untying our legal, judicial, political, economic and trading integration is a huge, complex, expensive and controversial operation which will take years to complete.

We could cut the Gordian knot with a no deal exit, but I think we'll come to regret it if we do. I can see the public mood shifting strongly against those who took us out as the consequences are no longer hypothetical. We will be in a poor negotiating position if we try to get back in.

originally posted by: EvilAxis

We could cut the Gordian knot with a no deal exit, but I think we'll come to regret it if we do.

There are many, probably a higher percentage than you think who do not

hold that opinion. There's nothing like a clean break to focus attention not

only by the UK but by the EU too!

I can see the public mood shifting strongly against those who took us out as the consequences are no longer hypothetical. We will be in a poor negotiating position if we try to get back in.

The mood IS shifting against ALL those who have been putting obstacles in the

way of the UK leaving the EU and those who have removed the 'ace in the pack'

of a no deal making *a poor negotiating position* inevitable.....It's a situation

akin to sending an army into a war ....minus any weapons

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Of course its up to the EU to grant that extension.

What a stupid game this is. Of course they are going to grant it, and they have. They arent fooling anyone with the poker bluff. They will grant it indefinitely in hopes of it falling through. If you really get something done by the next date, I will be amazed.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly
One level of EU authority is willing to grant an extension. They are not the top level.

originally posted by: harold223
The Westminster system is not designed for popular referendums. The referendum should never have occurred, it has no legal "teeth". The issue is from where I stand the fact that there is not the numbers in parliament to implement the changes required. You guys need to go to an election. If those who wish to leave campaign on that fact and get the required numbers in the house to pull it off, then Britain leaves. If those who wish to remain get more numbers in the house then Britain remains. If the numbers are still too close and it remains deadlocked, then maybe the sentiment is too close for such a major thing to be pulled off at the moment. Forget it and revisit it in 10 years time. This is how parliamentary democracy works, for better or worse.

Well, judging the last few years since the last election, parliamentary democracy does not work at all and it works for the worse.

The trouble is, MPS do not always vote according to their party's election manifesto, their party's whip or even according to the voters who put them into parliament! Instead, they vote according to their own wishes. Many have become one-man/woman-bands with their own adoring followers on Facebook or elsewhere who do not understand the meaning of party discipline and do not depend on their salaries because they have lots of directorships and advisory posts.

Therefore, even an election is not going to guarantee that the MP you voted for because his or her party wants to take out of or keep in the EU will obey the party Whips and vote in accordance with what the party promised. They are quite prepared to defy them and vote "for their conscience" rather than for their own constituents' wishes.

If you vote for the Brexit Party, they will never get a working majority in one go and will have to compromise their clean Brexit policies in the House of Commons in return for a soft Brexit that makes the least accessions to the EU.
If you vote for the Tory Party, they may still be the largest party in Parliament but may not get a working majority if some Tory voters switch to the Brexit Party or even the Social Democrats. After the election, we could end up with another unstable, even hung parliament torn between Remainers and Leavers - even though a clear majority of people in the country could have voted for a party that wanted to withdraw from the EU without a deal as soon as possible. Everyone could end up not getting what they wanted when they put a "X" against someone's name, somone whom they probably had never heard of beforehand but did so because they hoped he or she would follow the party manifesto.

Yes, it is called democracy in Britain. A party whom only a minority (usually about 35% or so) of the nation's voters voted for get to run the country for everyone for five years or until its majority becomes so small due to MPs switching sides or becoming independent that a small number of MPs representing an adjacent country offer to call an election on a simple majority in order to get the country out of its paralysed mess.

Yes. This is democracy if you want to call it that. I call it "farce."

originally posted by: eletheia
There are many, probably a higher percentage than you think who do not hold that opinion.

The most recent poll I saw said only one third of voters backed a no deal exit. However many there are, they still look to me like turkeys voting for Christmas.

originally posted by: EvilAxis

The most recent poll I saw said only one third of voters backed a no deal exit. However many there are, they still look to me like turkeys voting for Christmas.

Polls are notoriously inaccurate ......They were wrong about the outcome of

the referendum, they were wrong about the last election, they were wrong

about the Scottish referendum?......

I wouldn't bank on any of them, I have a theory that people get hounded so

much, they give pollsters the opposite answers to what they actually believe.

OOPS.....

OOPS.....again

AND AGAIN.......

And again!!!!

6th double post.......

SORRY ALL I didnt press too hard ..... I'm simply a technophobe whose

lap top is stuttering, Hope its not happened any where else I have posted

I'm sure it must be a record!!!!

Anyway the good news for me I THINK I'VE FIXED IT

a reply to: EvilAxis

Polls are polls.
Ignore them and just go with the actual result.
They are usually rubbish.

a reply to: eletheia
You must have pressed very hard on the key when you posted that reply. But six is not a record.

a reply to: JPtruther

Why ? Does the truth hurt " truther " ?

And....flippin rude !!! How very dare you

a reply to: oldcarpy

" you " may well have votes to leave.
" We " voted remain

a reply to: cosmickat

Who's "We"?