The Willfull Ignorance of Believing Trump: Occam's Razor Edition

a reply to: Maroboduus

I've seen a couple of people ask you to put your money where your mouth is and all you have is childish and commonly lame insults towards those.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
People think that just because we voted for Trump that we actually want Trump.

What we wanted in 2016 is anyone but Hillary.

In 2020, we'll want anyone but Biden/Warren/Sanders.

This whole upcoming election is nothing more than a referendum on socialism.

Just wanted to clear that up.

We know.

We've all also been trying to point out for years now that this is an excellent way to pigeonhole people into choosing someone they don't like or agree with. It's exploitation of those who either can't or choose not to think for themselves.

At least we're getting to the point where Trump followers are admitting this themselves and not just idolizing Trump blindly.

a reply to: atlantiswatusi

Said people simply missed the premise of this thread, which illustrates the real problem of our OP. It's essentially just a reminder regarding the general lack of critical thinking.
But you can't appeal with logics to people who abandoned reason wholesale due to their emotional attachment. What we should do is mock them with the worst insults imaginable, but it seems the OP couldn't keep up with all those idiotic replies.

Now, how may I be of service here?

originally posted by: Lumenari
a reply to: Maroboduus

So post a crime committed by Trump.

Let's see the jail time.

Actual evidence or anything that has gone to court and he has been found guilty of... ever?

Until then, I'll gladly scroll past your TDS word salad and get to the interesting part of your OP...

The comments.

Innocent until proven guilty is something the left can't get around... although they are really trying right now.

This is the problem. Trump diehards have convinced themselves that anything short of murder is acceptable. In order to convince a Trump supporter to abandon ship now requires a crime to be grievous and with overwhelming evidence.

However, the reason the Democrats and some Republicans are calling Trump a threat to the democracy is because morality was a large part of what held this country together. Take this quote from John Adams:

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

Or this one from George Washington:

Tis substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule indeed extends with more or less force to every species of free Government.

Or these two from Thomas Jefferson:

The very definition of tyranny is when all powers are gathered under one place.

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

The norms that Trump has crashed through, the lies he has told, the self serving have all proven him to be a man free from any morality. Trump truly cares for only himself. Look at the call with Ukraine, he never once discussed the interests of America. He never once said we stand with you in your fight to keep Russia from expanding their influence. No, it was all about his interests. An investigation to undercut the Mueller report and an investigation to get dirt on Biden. His earlier call with the Mexican president was all about him saving face on his promise to make Mexico pay for the wall. His call with Australia was also about saving face.

Trump is attempting to set the presidency as a power above Congress. That is expressly forbidden by the Constitution. The founding fathers also warned that those type of actions are the definition of tyranny.

Bottom line. It doesn't matter if you personally like him. It doesn't matter if you like his policies. When Trump is viewed through the lens of history he will be seen as one of if not the worst president in US history. A survey of historians in January of this year had him rated dead last. If you only take the opinions of Republican historians he is 4th from last.

So rather than being viewed as the reincarnation of Ronald Reagan or Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Trump gets cast as a modern-day James Buchanan, Franklin Pierce or William Harrison. Last year, a poll of nearly 200 political science scholars, which has routinely placed Republicans higher than Democrats, ranked him 44th out of the 44 men who have occupied the post (for those wondering why Trump is the 45th president, Grover Cleveland served twice).

Though the president has likened himself to Abraham Lincoln, who posterity has deemed to be greatest of all presidents, this survey judged him to be the worst of the worst. Even the conservative scholars, who identified themselves as Republicans, placed him 40th.

LINK

a reply to: Oraculi

No one idolizes Trump blindly.

That's an attribute foisted upon us by leftists who still feel that Hillary was cheated.

originally posted by: Oraculi

originally posted by: DBCowboy
People think that just because we voted for Trump that we actually want Trump.

What we wanted in 2016 is anyone but Hillary.

In 2020, we'll want anyone but Biden/Warren/Sanders.

This whole upcoming election is nothing more than a referendum on socialism.

Just wanted to clear that up.

We know.

We've all also been trying to point out for years now that this is an excellent way to pigeonhole people into choosing someone they don't like or agree with. It's exploitation of those who either can't or choose not to think for themselves.

At least we're getting to the point where Trump followers are admitting this themselves and not just idolizing Trump blindly.

What ?
A highly controlled narrative ?
Good folks being manipulated beyond their abilities to perceive it ?
Force-fed candidates, that manipulate voters down a funnel-like path ?

Ending-up voting for people whom are completely out-of-touch, and don't give a royal flying fox about common citizens ?

Puh-lease !!

Folks on ATS are not interested in such crazy conspiracy talk...

a reply to: Gorgonite

So post a crime committed by Trump.

Let's see the jail time.

Actual evidence or anything that has gone to court and he has been found guilty of... ever?

Until then, I will assume he is innocent until proven guilty.

And you will RREEEEEEEEEE until 2024.

And here we are.

a reply to: Lumenari

He can't!

He is now relegated to the historical side of ATS.

P

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: Lumenari

He can't!

He is now relegated to the historical side of ATS.

P

Oh!

Didn't notice that!

3 more to go...

originally posted by: Oraculi

originally posted by: DBCowboy
People think that just because we voted for Trump that we actually want Trump.

What we wanted in 2016 is anyone but Hillary.

In 2020, we'll want anyone but Biden/Warren/Sanders.

This whole upcoming election is nothing more than a referendum on socialism.

Just wanted to clear that up.

We know.

We've all also been trying to point out for years now that this is an excellent way to pigeonhole people into choosing someone they don't like or agree with. It's exploitation of those who either can't or choose not to think for themselves.

At least we're getting to the point where Trump followers are admitting this themselves and not just idolizing Trump blindly.

And therein lies one of your’s and the lefts biggest problems, you underestimate and ridicule the rights intelligence while trying to portray yourselves as being on some moral high ground. People on the right are not as sloooooow as you seem to think they are. Your post reads as though your waiting for the right to come around and rise up to some self appointed level of superiority you think you have. If that is in fact your perception, then you’re the one that’s missed the boat, not the right.

I’m kinda curious, who is the “we’ve” you’ve mentioned? Are you talking about the left collectively?

For what it’s worth, I think most people on the left have a misconception about Trump supporters and why they support him.

originally posted by: Gorgonite
This is the problem. Trump diehards have convinced themselves that anything short of murder is acceptable. In order to convince a Trump supporter to abandon ship now requires a crime to be grievous and with overwhelming evidence. 

Why are so many people preoccupied with trying to make their rival political supporters abandon ship? Why is that a thing now? Can we go back to when people had their opinions; expressed them in our democracy; and the majority opinion holders would steer the ship until they weren't in the majority anymore?

You lament that "Trump diehards have convinced themselves that anything short of murder is acceptable" but you fail to see that they where pushed their by people trying desperately to make them "abandoned ship" before he was even inaugurated; when he had to many icecream scopes; when he went on Twitter instead of CNN; when he slept with a porn star; when he nominated a rapist to the SC but not really; when he supposedly colluded with Russia but not really; when he supposedly obstructed the investigation into his "but not realy collusion with Russia" but not really; ...

The Trump diehards can no more give up ground on their support for Trump as Anti-Trump diehards can give up group in their pursuit to get Trump and his diehards. Its become too emotionally painful for anyone to move anymore and we lemnt that fact in others as we can't help ourselves from putting the screws to our political opponents.

And it didn't start with Trump eather its been ratcheting up for decades. We have Trump because he was one sides way of raising the stakes and now we have radical progressives on their way to winning the Democratic nomination as an answer to Trump.

I read those quotes you posted and I think they apply to a lot more people than just Trump.

oCcAmS rAzOr

that should be sufficient evidence right?

impeach!

Trump broke a Federal Election law, pure and simple. He provided the evidence for it through the transcript. He then openly admitted to doing the very thing the law, the Constitution and the intent of the Founding Fathers all agree on...it is illegal to involve a foreign power in an American election. Now, all we are arguing over is the penalty, if any, that will apply to this criminal act. tRump-lickers may argue no penalty should attatch to such a holy man, the greatest man, the most stable genius of unmatched wisdom. But then there are the strict constructionists, the Patriots...the law and order crowd that may argue "do the crime, serve the time"...or that if We allow a President to willfully break election laws, the next time a crooked Democrat gets in office, anything goes and there may never be another non-Democrat to hold the Presidency.....those sneaky Dems can be tricky (lol).

a reply to: KeithCooper

Trump broke a Federal Election law, pure and simple.

the doj determined differently
sorry your analysis is incorrect

a reply to: Maroboduus

Your willful ignorance actually made me laugh. The blind hate that exists to encompass Trump just amazes me, it seems to make reasonable, well-thought-out people unable to think clearly anymore.

But that does seem to be the divide of politics now and forever I suspect.

a reply to: Maroboduus

Just look at the Kavanaugh conformation and people going all in on the lies brought by Christine Blasey Ford because of the high-stakes.

You did the same thing in your opening post. Instead of actually providing evidence of Trump being guilty of a crime, you chose to character assassinate Trump supports.

All those people you invoked are not bringing evidence. They are conducting character assassination against Trump. They are using the 13 rules for radicals to support their party.

Rules for Radicals

en.m.wikipedia.org...

The Rules Edit
"Power is not only what you have but what the enemy thinks you have."
"Never go outside the expertise of your people."
"Whenever possible go outside the expertise of the enemy."
"Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules."
"Ridicule is man's most potent weapon."
"A good tactic is one your people enjoy."
"A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag."
"Keep the pressure on."
"The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."
"The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition."
"If you push a negative hard and deep enough it will break through into its counterside."
"The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."
"Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it."

a reply to: Maroboduus

You are missing the obvious here.

Yes almost the entire media has accused Trump of 100 things he supposedly did wrong. They have claimed the walls are closing in, impeachment is imminent, the economy's collapse is imminent, He colluded with Russians, he threatened leaders, he is corrupt, he peed on Russian hookers, he's not mentally fit, etc etc etc.

They have been wrong about ALL OF IT. ALL OF IT.

Occam's Razor definitely does apply - the media is making BS up constantly in an coup attempt.

originally posted by: harold223

originally posted by: DBCowboy
People think that just because we voted for Trump that we actually want Trump.

What we wanted in 2016 is anyone but Hillary.

In 2020, we'll want anyone but Biden/Warren/Sanders.

This whole upcoming election is nothing more than a referendum on socialism.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Referendum on Socialism? Man Americans have the most warped view on what Socialism means. I know Sanders has used the word "Democratic Socialism" but what he describes when he says that is just European Social Democracy, which is centre left policies from the European spectrum of politics. His policies are just stuff that most of the rest of the western world have had since the post WWII years. There is no Socialism in the works for America by any traditional Marxist definition of it. Unless the definition of Socialism has changed in the 21st century?

I don't care what you call it. He has listed out a bunch of policies that will cost an estimated 90 - 100 TRILLION DOLLARS over 10 years.

That is 250% more government spending.

Not only is that impossible, it is incredibly STUPID, and attempting 1/5 of that WILL lead to a Depression.

originally posted by: KeithCooper
Trump broke a Federal Election law, pure and simple. He provided the evidence for it through the transcript. He then openly admitted to doing the very thing the law, the Constitution and the intent of the Founding Fathers all agree on...it is illegal to involve a foreign power in an American election. Now, all we are arguing over is the penalty, if any, that will apply to this criminal act. tRump-lickers may argue no penalty should attatch to such a holy man, the greatest man, the most stable genius of unmatched wisdom. But then there are the strict constructionists, the Patriots...the law and order crowd that may argue "do the crime, serve the time"...or that if We allow a President to willfully break election laws, the next time a crooked Democrat gets in office, anything goes and there may never be another non-Democrat to hold the Presidency.....those sneaky Dems can be tricky (lol).

Then throw the entire Obama administration behind bars, they have admitted to paying Christopher Steele a former British spy, so FOREIGN NATIONAL for dirt on Trump released before the election which influenced the 2016 election. Admitted in public over and over and over again. Haven't seen the perp walk.

Blah. Blah blah
Second line.