We have not abandoned the Kurds

a reply to: hyperlexic

I know you’re new here, but attacking a point not being made and telling other members that if they don’t defend themselves in a manner you dictate is a) a strawman and b) not really going to work on ats. Most of us aren’t monkeys who jump just because you demand we jump.

And labeling me an Obama supporter is simply laughable in the extreme. Since you’re going wildly off-topic, I won’t be engaging with you any further.

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Mach2

What would you do? It's easy to be an armchair general, but putting our military in harm's way requires a better reason than I've heard to this point.

Ah that old chestnut again , your military weren't in harms way the presence of US troops and your support of the Kurds were a block to Turkey doing what they are now doing.

This area of the world has almost never known peace in the history of civilization, and we shouldn't be the world's policemen, when it doesn't serve national interests.

I guess that makes the murder of men , women and children OK then , just wipe your hands and walk away.
Your national interests are not best served by stepping aside to let genocide take place , history will remember and shame will remain.

So where does our responsibility end? There are atrocities happening in S. Africa, parts of Asia, etc as well. Should the US go in, guns blazing in those situations too?

How about you put your country's military there? How about the UN pass a resolution to put a multinational force there? How about if someone besides America steps up to the plate?

It seems everyone else is wiping their collective hands to me.

Our responsibility ends when a Dem POTUS or the media tells them its time to end.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: hyperlexic

I know you’re new here, but attacking a point not being made and telling other members that if they don’t defend themselves in a manner you dictate is a) a strawman and b) not really going to work on ats. Most of us aren’t monkeys who jump just because you demand we jump.

And labeling me an Obama supporter is simply laughable in the extreme. Since you’re going wildly off-topic, I won’t be engaging with you any further.

LOL now Im off topic.. For asking why all of a sudden you care about the KURDS? Why all of a sudden any of you care about teh KURDS?

One post from before he pulled the troops where someone said "you know I am glad we are in the ME so we can protect the KURDS.

Anything . My point stands . Orange man bad.

a reply to: Mach2

It seems everyone else is wiping their collective hands to me.

The facts are you were there and used the Kurds to meet your objectives , now those objectives have been met you pull out leaving them to their fate , when you open Pandora's Box you are left to deal with the consequences .... unless you bottle out and run away.

Trumps decision will have knock on effects beyond the murder of innocent civilians , time will tell how far those effects reach.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Mach2

It seems everyone else is wiping their collective hands to me.

The facts are you were there and used the Kurds to meet your objectives , now those objectives have been met you pull out leaving them to their fate , when you open Pandora's Box you are left to deal with the consequences .... unless you bottle out and run away.

Trumps decision will have knock on effects beyond the murder of innocent civilians , time will tell how far those effects reach.

Yep its Trumps fault Turkey kills people.... LOL

a reply to: hyperlexic

Yep its Trumps fault Turkey kills people.... LOL

Once again you demonstrate the level of your ignorance , from your posts on this site so far I'm undecided whether you're a fool or a Troll but am leaning toward Troll.

Have a nice day.

The Kurds were not abandoned. Turkey has told everyone for a while now that they are going to take a buffer area. Turkey has repeated that the Kurds there are terrorists that Turkey has officially recognized.

Syria is calling the Kurds traitors to Syria at this moment for fighting Turkey and fighting along side the USA. Their own country will NOT help them. They are traitors to their country. Not worth saving to Syrians.

Russia agreed with this buffer zone in 2018 and I am sure Syria went along with Russia as Russia is who Syria officially accepts as helping them. Syria doesn't not really consider the USA to be helping them. Especially since the Kurds want to carve out part of Syria for their own and Turkey has stated it will attack any such state. Syria does not want Turkey on their land like that and blames the Kurds for it. The Free Syrian Army is guarding those camps and not fighting Turkey but helping Turkey and staying safe with the USA embedded there. Most of those ISIS camps are outside the Turkey buffer area. Turkey has claimed they will take responsibility for the camps/prisons inside the buffer area.

The Kurds knew this was coming. It's not a shock to anyone on the ground there. The Kurds are their own worse enemy and this is an age old fight and NOT the USA's problem. The USA armed the Kurds and no one seems to be happy about that.

This is a small buffer area and Syria is willing to give it to them vs the huge area that the Kurds claim and that Turkey will take if the Kurds are given it. And Syria will lose a bunch of land over that so Syria is willing to overlook this buffer area right now. Notice how Syria is NOT rushing anyone to fight Turkey over it. It's all the Kurds. Which Syria states are traitors to their country for this action and for working with the USA.

It's Syria's land.

The EU is not going to get involved because they know for a fact that Turkey means what it states about flooding them with these terrorists. After all, a whole lot of them are European that the EU has decided not to take back. Like Trump states, NOT the USA's citizens or problem.

The USA, EU, Israel, Iran, no one is not going to fight Turkey over this buffer but the Kurds. Russia, USA, EU and Iran have stated that if Turkey is brutal and not careful of the civilian population, they will act but it's all talk really. Just talk to appease idiots that think this is a something burger when it's a nothing burger. Just age old enemies having a spat as usual.

I don't call it abandoning someone when that same someone rushes off to the fight instead of fleeing to safety as they were asked to do. I call that you get what you asked for. The USA and Turkey have been in talks for months about this buffer zone. And Russia had already agreed to it. The EU wasn't asked I am sure. The EU was told to butt out of the conversation or Turkey would allow all those "refugee" to flood into the EU. The EU isn't going to do jack # but bitch.

Since the Kurds know that the USA and Turkey are talking and have "safe zones", why did the Kurds not put their civilians in them? Because they want to be able to say Turkey is bad and they are hoping that idiots take their side in this age old feud. Not going to happen. I don't feel pity for people that rush to their deaths instead of fleeing. I call that a death wish and I ain't got one.

As Turkey refuses to shut off Iranian gas to Turkey even with all the sanctions, Iran is in a hard spot. They will do nothing but bitch to keep Turkey happy. Turkey has Iran over the barrel as the only country I know of that bucking the USA sanctions right now. The EU and USA will not get involved because of Turkey being in NATO. Russia will do nothing because they agree with Turkey and Russia had nothing to do with the Kurds, why would they help them?

If the Kurds believed anything the USA said after that fiasco, not even what? 20 years ago or so? Saddam chemically gassed them dead and no one done anything, they are the FOOLS in all this. They deserve what they get.

Am I harsh? No. This is the way life is and the complex situation of international affairs.

Turkey will get their buffer zone. No one will stop them. If anyone tries, Turkey will get revenge somehow on them. This was worked out with all the parties involved a while ago and the Kurds never did try to play along, or get along with any of it. The Kurds knew this was coming.

a reply to: gortex
Its funny because you cant find one post from before all of this and you know you never cared before. Im a fool and a troll..

Its a reasonable request and not one person who is so worried about them now had a post where they ever worried about them before.

I would bet most of you have posts from before this where you screamed for us to get out the ME. Now you are war mongers..

a reply to: gortex

The second seems more likely.

In any event, we don’t need to pretend that it was a one-way relationship with the Kurds. They were using us, we were using them. Should we have been there in the first place? Of course one can argue that we shouldn’t be running around getting involved in things.

Personally this is one of the few times where I think Trump was actually thinking a few moves ahead, and wanted to give Turkey some rope to hang themselves with. Will that be the case? I dunno, but that’s my hope.

a reply to: Shamrock6

The second seems more likely.

Yep keep attacking the poster.. Classy Sham.....

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: gortex

So how long is the US going to stay there? What is the end game? Are we invited there by the country that owns that land?

NO. The USA was NOT invited in by the country, Syria. The USA took it upon themselves to go and fight ISIS there. Kind of like we took it upon ourselves to go to Iraq.

All I hear is bad Trump.

Tell me what Trump should have done and what the outcome is supposed to look like for the Kurds.

Are they supposed to get their own country?

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

A point that’s lost on those who think Trump can do no right. There was only three options available. Pull out, stay there quite literally indefinitely, or overwhelmingly expand the operation to achieve Kurdish aims and then leave.

All three of them are not exactly terrific options but two of them are significantly worse than the other. It doesn’t make that third option great, just less bad.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
All I hear is bad Trump.

Tell me what Trump should have done and what the outcome is supposed to look like for the Kurds.

Are they supposed to get their own country?

The Kurds have been told by everyone, Syria, USA, Russia, Iran, Turkey, all players there that there would be no new country carved out of Syria for the Kurds. Syria was going to allow them to govern themselves but not become a separate nation. I do not know if Syria is still offering to let the Kurds self govern but at this time, I would highly doubt that. Syria considers these Kurds traitors to their nation.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

A point that’s lost on those who think Trump can do no right. There was only three options available. Pull out, stay there quite literally indefinitely, or overwhelmingly expand the operation to achieve Kurdish aims and then leave.

All three of them are not exactly terrific options but two of them are significantly worse than the other. It doesn’t make that third option great, just less bad.

I think what has happened to the Kurds is bad, I just don't blame Trump. I blame those who us into this mess with no clear plan.

The only options I really see is start a war and give Kurds their own country then send troops to protect them, or leave.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Mach2

It seems everyone else is wiping their collective hands to me.

The facts are you were there and used the Kurds to meet your objectives , now those objectives have been met you pull out leaving them to their fate , when you open Pandora's Box you are left to deal with the consequences .... unless you bottle out and run away.

Trumps decision will have knock on effects beyond the murder of innocent civilians , time will tell how far those effects reach.

That's not a good enough reason to stay in an open ended capacity, with no reasonable chance for a lasting impact. By that manner of reasoning, we should never have left Viet Nam.

Open ended, unilateral military involvement, with no clear cut end game is not something I want my country involved in.

Like I said before, if you can get the UN, or even the other NATO allies on board, I'll listen. If you can't, them let the cards fall where they may.

I will agree with you that Turkey is out of line here, and the Kurds will suffer, but this should be dealt with internationally. There is absolutely no reason the US should stand alone here. Where is the EU? Where is Muslim leadership? Where are the other countries of the region?

Do they not see it as a problem?

ATTENTION!!!!

This thread is NOT in the Mud Pit!! The Thread topic is "We have not abandoned the Kurds", not each other!

Please post on topic and immediately stop the back-and-forth personal posts. Do not reply to this message.

Thank you

a reply to: hyperlexic

Yep its Trumps fault Turkey kills people.... LOL

Actually all that is happening right now, could have been avoided. USA and Turkey were working together for weeks to set up a buffer zone along the Syrian-Turkish border. The problem is that the Kurds that are supported by USA considered terrorists by Turkey.

Turkey would have never attacked as long US-Forces were there only after Presidents Trump decision to give the green light for an all in assault by Turkey. The consequences are obvious to everyone.

For weeks, the two Nato allies have been working to set up a buffer zone along the Syrian-Turkish border, in an attempt to keep US-backed Kurdish forces at least 32km from Turkey.

However, Ankara has been growing frustrated with the progress, and began to prepare for an assualt into Kurdish-held areas of northeast Syria to clear them of the YPG militia.

Though Turkey considers the YPG an arm of the outlawed PKK militant group, the Kurdish militia has been the US's principal partner on the ground in its fight against the Islamic State group (IS).

Link

Did i mentioned that even though Turkey has direct intel where US-Forces are, still bombed US-Forces and called it a mistake ?

A contingent of U.S. Special Forces has been caught up in Turkish shelling against U.S.-backed Kurdish positions in northern Syria, days after President Donald Trump told his Turkish counterpart he would withdraw U.S. troops from certain positions in the area.

Newsweek has learned through both an Iraqi Kurdish intelligence official and senior Pentagon official that Special Forces operating on Mashtenour hill in the majority-Kurdish city of Kobani fell under artillery fire from Turkish forces conducting their so-called "Operation Peace Spring" against Kurdish fighters backed by the U.S. but considered terrorist organizations by Turkey.

The senior Pentagon official said that Turkish forces should be aware of U.S. positions "down to the grid." The official could not specify the exact number of personnel present, but indicated they were "small numbers below company level," so somewhere between 15 and 100 troops.

The official said shelling was so heavy that the U.S. personnel were exfiltrated once the attack had ceased. Newsweek has reached out to the Pentagon for comment on the situation.

Link

So it´s not Presidents Trump fault that Turkey kills people (as you put it), it´s a direct consequence from his decision to give green light for an all in assault by Turkey.

Peace

a reply to: Mach2

Like I said before, if you can get the UN, or even the other NATO allies on board, I'll listen. If you can't, them let the cards fall where they may.

I agree NATO has a role to play here and their silence is deafening , Turkey's actions and threats to Europe show why they should never have been invited into NATO but their inclusion was based on political reasons.

“We wanted Turkey in NATO because of the Cold War,” Steven A. Cook, a Turkey expert at the Council on Foreign Relations, told me. Back in 1952, with the alliance just a few years old, it expanded for the first time, welcoming two new members: Greece and Turkey. At the time, President Harry Truman offered membership to both as a way to contain Communist expansion—Greece’s Western-backed government had just defeated Communist forces in a civil war. It helped that Turkey also gave the alliance a foothold close to the Middle East.
www.theatlantic.com...

Erdoğan is a despot who was likely behind the supposed Coup in Turkey in an effort to strengthen his hold on power , a reevaluation of their membership is needed.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

That’s where I’m at with it. The Kurds have been done dirty, and for the next 20 years whenever we send troops somewhere (which will happen, even if it only happens when Trump leaves office) the locals are going to remember when we left the Kurds.

Is staying there preferable to that? I don’t think it is, no. But I can’t pretend this is going to be problem-free, either.