President Trump Makes America Great Again, Corrects Another Historical Injustice

originally posted by: burntheships
a reply to: FatherLukeDuke
Not to mention that they last
longer than the other more expensive, cheaply made
bulbs.

They absolutely do not.

a reply to: surfer_soul

Ya: you're probably right.
Nobody seems to care.
Just another president capitulating, just another corporate win.
Same as it's ever been.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: burntheships

Fair play but that don't equate to MAGA.

Plus wasting energy costs monies.

Choice, as you say, is your own, use whatever type of bulb you want.

Ah, but see it is MY money. So I can spend it how i like.

MAGA

originally posted by: LordAhriman

They absolutely do not.

Oh, oh yes they do!

I have had dozens of CFL bulbs turn out to be duds.
They don't last, and in fact are a danger to people
and the environment.

Had several explode, releasing dangerous compounds
into the air right above my head. Talk about sick,
I was ill for days with a terrible headache.

NEVER again.

Threw them all out. Funny thing is they can not
go into the regular garbage.

But I bet tons of people throw tons of them away.

This is an environmental disaster that will eventually
raise it's ugly head, contaminating ground water,
streams, the oceans etc.

a reply to: Bluntone22

LED televisions are incredibly efficient. Like ridiculously. They cost less than a couple bucks a month to run for 5 hours a day. You can run 4-6 LED bulbs for the same energy cost as a single incandescent. Of course, I'm all for incandescent's coming back. Sometimes they're just what I want or need. But my whole hose is LED other than lamps and closets.

a reply to: burntheships

I use CFL in two places, my garage and my outdoor lights. Plenty of ventilation if one breaks. Other than that, LED's and Incandescent bulbs ftw.

a reply to: burntheships

So you will make America great again by wasting monies and energy?

The truth of it is, your money belongs to neither the people of America nor the government.

How's that, you say?

Well, if one was to really dive just a bit deeper, before hitting the rocks just under the US greenback pond, one would quickly discover that the actual US dollar has not existed since 1913, where it was effectively killed.

What is now called the US dollar is actually a Federal Reserve Note.

Says it right at the top of each bill.

Whether he succeeded or not to make America great again we will be able to determine only after several years after his end of office. To tell you the truth I'll be really surprised if he wins the next election.

It seems a lot of people are confused about what bulb does what.

Incandescent bulbs work by superheating a filament wire so hot it glows. They produce a nice, warm light but do so at a very high energy expense.

CFLs (Compact Fluorescent Lightbulbs) use a built-in ballast contained in the base to drive a twisted-up fluorescent light tube. The ballast is essentially a very high voltage transformer which puts off static electrical fields (the same kind that cause a shock when touching a metal object). In addition, they work by ionizing gas (the reason for the very high voltage) and use mercury vapor as that gas. Thus they contain mercury. Ionized mercury gas produces UV light, which is then converted into warmer light by a phosphorescent coating on the inside of the tube.

LED (Light-Emitting Diode) bulbs use current passed through a diode with a special material at the PN junction to cause that junction to emit visible light wavelengths and a clear covering to allow that visible light to escape. The wavelengths of light produced depend on the materials and doping of the PN junction, and a phosphorescent coating can be applied to the inside of the globe to further change the light produced to a warmer light. They use a low-voltage power supply in the base to drive the LEDs.

Incandescents produce the best light but produce a lot of heat as well, causing them to use more energy. Both CFL and LED produce the same amount of light but use much less energy to do so.

I prefer LED. They do last many, many times longer than incandescents (reducing replacement costs), use far less energy to produce light (meaning lower electric bills), do not dim over time like CFLs, are dimmable using a standard dimming circuit (some still are not, but many are; this is a function of the power supply), do not contain hazardous substances that can be released into the environment, and can produce light nearly identical to incandescents. The problem is the technology was rushed into production thanks to Bush's ill-timed decree. LED bulbs were simply not ready for market. Thus there were overheating problems due to issues with miniaturizing the power supplies, poor assembly techniques that caused premature failure, and problems with the light being too 'cool' for comfortable viewing. Not to mention they were originally extremely expensive.

Those issues have been mostly addressed. I have had one bulb overheat, and it didn't die... the globe separated from the base, so it produced cooler light, but it did still work. The failure rate due to mechanical issues is about the same as incandescent bulbs. Purchasing "warm white" bulbs gives nearly identical light to incandescents. And finally, the cost has dropped to what I consider reasonable (and I'm a damn miser with money).

With that one exception mentioned, all the LED bulbs I have are still operating as well today as they did 4-5 years ago when I was able to install them. I am 100% LED, which includes a total of 20 bulbs in my shop alone. There's probably another 16 or so in my house. Out of all that, I have not had to replace a single bulb except for that one. The light is the same as when I was paying 5-6 times as much for the use of incandescents, and my cooling bills have dropped.

Simply put, CFLs and LEDs have almost nothing in common. Many of the complaints I am hearing are applicable to CFLs, but not to LEDs... yet these complaints are being transferred to LEDs also. I urge people to try LEDs without equating them to CFLs and see the difference.

I will still praise Trump for his actions in this. I use 60W incandescents as heat lights for raising baby chicks... the heat is what is needed, so LEDs and CFLs will not work. Heat lamps are simply too hot and can burn the chicks at that tender age. 60W incandescents are easily mounted in cheap temporary fixtures and put out the perfect amount of heat. Plus, I dislike the idea of the government dictating what can and cannot be purchased. Fraud is the only exception I make to this... as long as a product is marketed honestly and fairly, people should be able to buy it.

But I'll only be buying incandescent bulbs for the chicks. I'm not going back. As it stands right now, I may well never have to replace another light bulb in my lifetime. Based on my experience with LED technology, I fully expect these bulbs to last a minimum of 30 years.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: tanstaafl

LEDs always flicker. Typically it matches the 60Hz signal from the rectified AC source.

It's imperceptible.

From the linked source:

"Flicker is a difficult aspect of lighting to observe and measure, as it is not immediately perceptible or noticeable, but preliminary research suggests that it can have detrimental effects on health and safety.

In other words, just because flickering is not immediately evident or perceivable to our eyes, our bodies can subconsciously react and respond to what is essentially a very rapid strobe light. Flicker has been associated with eye strain, fatigue, headaches, and even elevated risks of seizures."

So, the fact that it may be imperceptible does not necessarily mean there are no negative health effects.

Still too early and too little meaningful research to tell...

a reply to: tanstaafl

LEDs do not flicker. The drivers do. LEDs simply respond so quickly to current that very fast interruptions in that current can cause them to flicker imperceptibly.

The monitor you are looking at, assuming it is LED, flickers as it scans the screen. An LED digital display flickers due to the multiplexer (and many use pulse width modulation to control the brightness as well). An LED bulb does not flicker, unless it is on a dimmable circuit (all dimmable lights use pulse width modulation, and so therefore flicker). An LED indicator light does not necessarily flicker. It's not the bulb; it is the circuit driving it. LEDs are continuous wave by nature. As long as current flows through them, they will produce light. There is no reason to make an LED bulb flicker unless one wishes to dim it.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: tanstaafl

LEDs do not flicker. The drivers do.

Ass-u-me-ing all LEDs require drivers (do they actually? dunno), this is irrelevant to the question of can they potentailly negatively impact health.

a reply to: tanstaafl

No, as I stated, a simple LED bulb on a non-dimming circuit uses a static driver... it does not flicker. On a dimmable circuit, all bulbs will flicker... the LED might show the flicker more than an incandescent due to the incandescent's impedance, but both will flicker. That's my point. There is no real difference between incandescent and LED bulbs in that respect.

If someone has no issue with looking at a numeric LED display or LED TV screen, they should have no problem with a dimmable lighting circuit. LED bulbs in non-dimmable lighting circuits will not flicker at all.

TheRedneck

a reply to: tanstaafl

Oh, and a driver is simply whatever supplies power. So yes, all LEDs have a driver; so does every other electronic device known to mankind.

TheRedneck

a reply to: funbobby

Even when the Bush-era "ban" for lack of a better term went into effect, I've never found a lack of incandescent bulbs available.

I only use them for certain applications (i.e. the wife's bathroom vanity) where a fuller spectrum of light is desirable. LEDs are inexpensive (about $1 per bulb now), dimmable, use a fraction of the electricity, I've only replaced one in 5 years of using them (because my son dropped it), they don't emit heat, and can't burn children or potentially start fires.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: tanstaafl

No, as I stated, a simple LED bulb on a non-dimming circuit uses a static driver... it does not flicker.

Ok, did a lot of reading, and while I'm not an engineer, it doesn't appear to be quite as cut-n-dried as you seem to be claiming.

Your statement above is correct, if - I repeat if - the driver is a good quality one and is functioning properly.

A quality LED bulb with a quality and properly functioning driver (aka power supply) - meaning, one properly designed with quality capacitors - will be able to overcome all of the flicker, even the imperceptible flicker that is the main health concern.

However, many cheap ones (made in China?) likely have cheap/crappy drivers, just good enough to overcome perceptible flicker, but likely not good enough to overcome the imperceptible flicker that constitutes the health concern we are discussing.

So, again, as I stated originally, there are two potential health risks associated with LED bulbs:

1. Prolonged exposure to 'blue light' in the evening and night-time hours, and

2. Flicker

On a dimmable circuit, all bulbs will flicker...

Again, not quite so cut-n-dried.

For dimmable LEDs, what matters is the quality of the dimmer. From the linked article:

"Basic PWM LED dimmers operate at 300 Hz or lower, while truly flicker-free LED dimmers operate at 25,000 Hz or above. By raising the frequency to such high rates (e.g 25,000 times per second), the rate of switching becomes so rapid that it is far above the threshold of even subconscious perception for the human body."

I will say thanks for making me do a little more research, now at least I know what to look for, and how to tell if an LED is of good quality, and how to test it before the flicker becomes perceptible (that info is also found in the linked article, but I'll let you go read it for yourself if desired).

a reply to: tanstaafl

A quality LED bulb with a quality and properly functioning driver (aka power supply) - meaning, one properly designed with quality capacitors - will be able to overcome all of the flicker, even the imperceptible flicker that is the main health concern.

However, many cheap ones (made in China?) likely have cheap/crappy drivers, just good enough to overcome perceptible flicker, but likely not good enough to overcome the imperceptible flicker that constitutes the health concern we are discussing.

There are power supplies within each bulb itself, necessary due to the fact that all LEDs are inherently low-voltage DC devices now being driven by high voltage AC. Those drivers can take one of two forms: a switching DC regulator or a capacitive filtered throttle regulator. Due to the size of the area involved, it is quite difficult to get a switching regulator inside the base; the active components cannot run directly off AC power any more than LEDs can, so there would have to be a transformer or bootstrap circuit, both of which take up a lot of space.

A capacitive filtered circuit will possibly produce a 60 Hz flicker if not properly designed; that is correct. What is missing is that the flicker, if produced, is indicative of an overload condition at certain points and will likely lead to premature burnout. Since premature burnout is not an issue (in my experience) there is no reason to believe the bulbs are producing flicker. That is why I discount the possibility of flicker inherent in the bulbs, and why I stated that any bulb would produce the same flicker; 60 Hz flicker, partially filtered by the induction of the filament, is inherent in direct-driven incandescent bulbs as well.

The main difference between dimmable and non-dimmable bulbs is the response time. Dimmable bulbs have a response that allows them to respond to voltages that change rapidly without flicker. They are much more susceptible to capacitor quality than non-dimmable bulbs in a standard circuit.

I will be happy to look over the article you are referencing, but you do not provide a link; perhaps you provided it in an earlier post, but another reference would be appreciated if so.

TheRedneck

a reply to: funbobby

Oh the horror! Such a terrible injustice!!!! Wow, and I thought by the thread name it would be something major lol!!

originally posted by: TheRedneck
I will be happy to look over the article you are referencing, but you do not provide a link; perhaps you provided it in an earlier post, but another reference would be appreciated if so.

Was linked in my first response to this thread here