My awesome neighbor utopia is ending

a reply to: JAGStorm

Haha. That sounds like my neighbor. I first saw him holding a survey map in my back yard.

I had to point out our survey markers because he was thoroughly confused.

It didn't help that a couple years previously when we moved into this house we contacted his father and asked to buy the parcel. Dad wouldn't sell because he thought about development but all the neighbors got wind and pointed out it wasn't zoned for multiple units. In the end he gave it to his son to allow him to build on it.

I think it will all work out. Or at least I hope it does for you. Just make sure you keep a diary and know your codes and laws and such. Utility companies are generally good about this stuff.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Sounds like you have some un neighborly people as your neighbors..

I am sure you know this-but don't let them get away with even the smallest unacceptable behaviour.
Because that kind of person will just keep pushing more and more if they think you can be manipulated.

I had something similar that my bad neighbors tried to escalate through a vile series of events years ago.
It started small,but escalated to such things as:
Dead foxes hung from trees in my garden at night,animal water troughs posioned with lead/bleach,tyres slashed.
I documemted everything with my camera in case I ever needed to go to the cops-then dealt with it myself(don't ask).

There are sadly some people who cannot be reasoned with in a rational manner..
Hope it all works out for you.

I could probably write a book on this subject. I could tell you so many property horror stories you wouldn't be able to sleep at night. I'll try to refrain, but I've seen more than my share of them. You've gotten some sound advice, and several posters have come very close to the heart of the issue, but there is more. Plus, some of the terminology being used in this post is not exactly correct. A few questions first:

1. You've said your lot is "huge", but how big are we talking about here? 1 acre, 5 acres, 40 acres, 640 acres, etc.? Reason for asking is because the laws change as parcel size increases.

2. Where does the regulated utility end? Some explanation - Power comes to most lots along a regulated utility "easement". (not to be confused with other types of easements which we'll get into later) This is a legally documented 'Right of Way' across property. This easement usually ends at, or before, an individual property. When Section sized parcels get subdivided and roads are involved this gets more complicated, but judging from your description this is not the case. Everything on the easement belongs to the power company (not the easement itself, but all the power related equipment on it). The property owner is required to extend the power from the end of the easement to the home site (at his cost). This is NOT an easement (or "not yet" anyway). So, back to the question; where does the publicly regulated utility easement end with respect to your property (and his)? This is important.

As noted above, there are other types of easements. Depending on the state laws, these can be called things like "permissive easements" and/or "necessity easements", and this is where things get sticky. An example of a necessity easement would be a road across one property to access another landlocked parcel. A permissive easement is even more ambiguous. An example would be where one property owner allows another to cross (or use) a portion of his property for things like convenience (not to be confused with necessity). The problem is, over time, a permissive easement can affect the property on either side of it, unlike a necessity easement which only grants access to another property.

You'll need to nip this in the bud quickly (as others have noted), and here's why... This example was an extreme case, but it illustrates the point. A large well to do subdivision was built next to some ranch land up in Boulder. The ranch sat on a section of property which was located in between the subdivision and some state owned land where there was a river. The rancher used the river to water his cows. A wealthy dentist moved into one of the houses in the subdivision and he and his wife gained permission from the rancher to walk across his property to the river so they could take nature walks.

This arrangement went on for several years until one day the rancher got served with papers that said the dentist could now claim the property they walked on as their own through a permissive easement law. This wasn't the worst part. All the property on the other side of where the couple transited was also claimed (effectively cutting the ranch in half), and even worse, it cut the rancher off from the water in the river. Everyone thought the claim was ridiculous and that it would never stand up in court. Well, it DID stand up in court and the wealthy dentist basically bankrupted the rancher hiring high priced attorneys to essentially annex the land from the rancher! (Note - It makes me furious to even type this, but I digress). The dentist and his wife knew the laws, and they even bought their house with the idea of pulling this scheme off. They played the system and won!

So, for all you know, this guy is a calculating SOB who knows the laws and intends to enlarge his property by every means possible. Have your property surveyed by a registered land surveyor. Tell the neighbor what you are doing and why. You don't have to get into a confrontation about it, but you're just letting him know you are going to protect your legal right to YOUR property. If he's putting in a utility along the property line, make sure it will not become part of the regulated utility easement (the power company can answer this). And make doubly sure you understand the easement "set backs" (i.e. the width of any such easement).

A little side note: A tree is a permanent structure and can legally be removed if it resides in an easement. If this homeowner has some scheme to create an easement along your property you should definitely get legal counsel involved and file an injunction or stop work order until the matter is completely resolved. Leave nothing to chance and good will. Plus, an injunction or stop work will delay power to your new neighbor, which will definitely let him know you are serious about the matter. The legal "position of strength" is on your side (for now), but it won't be for long if they start digging!

Hope this helps.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Awaiting a call from our village.

Lots are all between 2-10 acres. No two lots are the same size.

2. Where does the regulated utility end? Some explanation - Power comes to most lots along a regulated utility "easement".

The utility easement is 17ft all the way across the front of everyone's property.
In addition, he has an easement on the right side of his property which is 10ft
He is wanting to put the electric on the left side, there is no easement there other than the first 17ft of all of property. I get that and what it is used for.
I have an easement on my left side. There is absolutely no easement where he is wanting to put the electric. There is a very real possibility that he simply assumed one was there. His lot is unique as it has a property behind it, nobody else has a lot like that. That easement to his right goes to that property.

As noted above, there are other types of easements. Depending on the state laws, these can be called things like "permissive easements" and/or "necessity easements"

Not the case here as he is not landlocked and there is nothing preventing him from putting electric in a least a hundred other places. If anything he probably has more access than the normal lot as he is somewhat on a corner.

That story about the dentist.. That just chaps my hide. If there is such a thing as karma I hope they got/get it. Terrible terrible terrible. This is exactly why I don't want to give an inch.

a reply to: NarcolepticBuddha

Edit: I've seen and dealt with a lot of these types overseeing the construction of their houses. The reason they're so fastidious (driving by 10 times a day) is so they can boss contractors around and feel big.

I had actually never thought of that, and I believe you are right!! I noticed he only does this while they are working, and it is never never with the wife. What kind of little man takes pleasure in that kind of thing.

BTW. It is not even 10am here and he's be by at least 4x already!

a reply to: JAGStorm

Seems like he is required to keep his utility on his property if he isn't using the easement.

In that case they shouldn't even drive on your property much less dig to put in whatever he wants.
Do you have setback laws because it might apply to utilities and then he can't put his line right up next to either.

On a side note you might want to check the deed for the lot behind and just make sure what property is giving him easement access to the public road. He has one and you do not want it to be you or on your border. On a good note if this easement is on your builder neighbors land and he puts in a utility on that border it might prevent future drive way access right next to your property. Just something to think about.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Permissive easements are completely different than necessity easements. Access to the property is generally not an issue with a permissive easement.

I'll try to put a permissive easement into a little better context for you...

"Well, I was going to put my power line here (on the edge of my property), but that was inconvenient for me because those trees were in the way, so I put my power line just to the east of the tree line (on the neighbor's property) because it was more convenient. Now everything from the furthest setback on the 'permissive' easement is my property. (because the owner of said property did not object, and thereby gave me permission)."

Gettin' mad yet?

Here's another fun story, and this one is a classic. Property owner A builds a fence on what he thinks is his property. Property owner A then finds out the fence isn't on his property, but rather is on property owner B's property. Property owner A decides he's not going to pay for said fence. Contractor sues. Case gets dismissed. Contractor sues property owner B for the cost of the fence on his property. Court finds in favor of contractor and orders property owner B to pay for fence (when he never wanted the fence to begin with. (Very true story...actually precedent law which is taught in many colleges).

Here's one I personally experienced. Property owner A builds a fence right on the property line (no dispute). Property owner A then tells property owner B he has to pay for 1/2 of the fence. Property owner B doesn't want to pay for Property owner A's crappy fence. Guess what? (property owner B pays half by law) LOL. Karma is a bitch though because...later property owner A gets a taste of his own medicine! Property owner B's cattle tear down fence between the properties because it was built improperly. Property owner B fixes fence so it's strong enough for cattle (which costs 3x as much as the original fence). Guess who paid for half of that fence??? LOL Property owner A now discusses all fencing ideas with property owner B in a constructive way.

Bottom line; this isn't ONLY about the property lines, it may also be about the cost of the utility being installed. If it's installed on your property, you could wind up paying for your neighbor's new power line!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I'm actually calming down a bit today. After my little talk with the guy yesterday it seems they are being EXTRA careful not to walk on or near my property. The bad thing is that my office looks right out exactly where all this work is happening.

I'm not giving permission for squat!
I don't think this is a case of permissive easement either. He is literally putting electric in the hardest spot in his entire lot.
If he went down the right side, everything is open and clear.

Hey man, that A B fence story is unreal.. I once saw an old man that had a shirt on. It said "I hate people" I think I need to get one of those. I bet property owner A didn't feel so smart after the cattle fence! lol

a reply to: JAGStorm

Property owner A learned a lot of lessons the hard way.

By the way, I was property owner B in the 2nd story! LOL

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Really good series on that just concluded its second season - Yellowstone. Kevin Costner is the rancher. The dentist would not fare well in that scenario.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: JAGStorm

Property owner A learned a lot of lessons the hard way.

By the way, I was property owner B in the 2nd story! LOL

Not sure if you've heard about Foxconn coming to Wisconsin. They worked with
the government and took land away from this lady through eminent domain.
She just built her house brand new, and the city wanted it but didn't want to pay her. They deemed the area
"blighted". It is sickening.. The worst part... the very worst part, now Foxconn isn't even going to
hire as many people as they said they were. A total Fox-Con!


beltmag.com...

“The Village is telling us our land is worthless, while at the same time you’re telling Foxconn it’s the best property in the world. I don’t know how any of you guys can sit here and do this

a reply to: JAGStorm

Hopefully for your sanity this will all work out. Have you asked him why he is putting the utility on that side?

Hopefully he won't remove the trees on his property that from your map look like two are on his side and provide some privacy.

originally posted by: Identified
a reply to: JAGStorm

Hopefully for your sanity this will all work out. Have you asked him why he is putting the utility on that side?

Hopefully he won't remove the trees on his property that from your map look like two are on his side and provide some privacy.

I know exactly why, to save money, installing underground electric is $$$, so he is trying to to use the shortest path. It is because he oriented his house in a dumb way! Why he didn't put his house on the right side of the lot is beyond comprehension. There is actually a magnificent view on the other side. Where he has it oriented now, he has a view of my very big driveway.

This example is not much of an exaggeration. I believe he has his house as close to the lot line as legally possible, I think 20 ft. I know for city folks that might sound like a lot, but in the country, that is too close!

a reply to: JAGStorm

He isn't planning to subdivide is he?

He sounds like an idiot like my new neighbor. And yes 20' is too close! Thankfully my neighbor, although closer to my property than need be, is still 50+ yards away but he unnecessarily cut down 10 huge trees when prepping the site. Ugh! He really had no idea what he was doing.

Oh well I hope your neighbor enjoys looking at your driveway. I suppose he is going to put his driveway on the otherside?

a reply to: JAGStorm

Today call a surveyor and have them mark the line, tell them you don't need a whole survey just one line, it will be a lot cheaper. If anything is over the line consult an attorney or if the damage is less than $10,000 you can file in small claims court yourself, take lots of pictures. Also send a demand letter because small claims court takes 2 years and the threats in your letter might convince them to simply pay your damages in a timely manner. running electric is very expensive and you pay by the distance so they probably put the wires where they are putting them because that will be the shortest and cheapest distance for the wires.

He isn't planning to subdivide is he?

--No, it's not legal here, we have min required lot sizes


He sounds like an idiot like my new neighbor. And yes 20' is too close! Thankfully my neighbor, although closer to my property than need be, is still 50+ yards away but he unnecessarily cut down 10 huge trees when prepping the site. Ugh! He really had no idea what he was doing. Oh well I hope your neighbor enjoys looking at your driveway. I suppose he is going to put his driveway on the otherside?


--The funny part, is due to our elevation differences it is even worse. My driveway is up high and with my cars on it, it's like a direct view. I usually have 4 or more cars on my driveway.
Yup, driveway on other-side where there's a legal easement, and a view most people would kill for..So what does he put there, his garage side of house with zero windows... Some people are dumb as rocks!

Even so, as long as he is on his lot and leaves mine alone, that is all I care about. I just don't want my lot dug up

a reply to: JAGStorm

Yep, he will learn after a month in the house that he was stupid and should have thought it out more, especially when he gets headlight in his windows all night or flashing sunlight off your windshields. Oh well you can't fix stupid.

Good thing he can't subdivide that will save you a headache.

a reply to: JAGStorm

New update!!!!

This is crazy.
No call from township, but it seems like they might be backing off my lot.
Thanks for the advice Plotus, going directly out there and making a mean face might have worked. Sometimes I think these people just want to see what they can get away with or if you care.

They now have their eyeballs on the lot across the street!! I'm not even kidding. Here's what worse.
That neighbor just put a brand new lawn in, still dirt/seed, the grass hasn't even emerged and they are tromping all through her yard. What the heck! (I'm not going to fight my neighbors battles for her) but that isn't right. They aren't even staying in the egress, they are in the middle of her brand new yard. Why in the Sam hill would they need to be in the middle of anyone's yard??? (does this make sense to anyone, why are they trying to go through my yard and her yard?)
I had a new yard put in and I know how expensive it is. The bad part is I know what she went through to get that yard. She waited a long time, she told me how she struggled to afford landscaping but wanted to wait to get it perfect. It makes me mad when people don't respect others property.

Just wanted to add, it was not utility workers in her yard, it was the construction crew!

a reply to: JAGStorm

For the record, in every state I've practiced Civil Engineering in, something like that would require a TAP/TCP (Temporary Access/Construction Permit) and without one, the contractor can be charged with trespassing and charged for any needed repairs. A TCP actually includes a clause which requires the property be returned to the condition it was in prior to activity (or better) and involves both compensation for the access and must be agreed to by the property owner (or mitigated by a judge) before anything other than emergency related access can be made.

In other words, your neighbor has a legitimate legal case on her hands if she wanted to persue it.

surely placing a power line under ground by tree roots is a bad idea .