Mourning the Death of Democracy in the UK

a reply to: gortex

How democratic it is any way to keep a "pet family" that is pretty much like forever?

I mean you guys saw game of thrones right?


It does not work if you cant steal the throne, you know?

Seems quite unfair.

Rich forever biiiatchas!

These dicks would not understand democracy if it slapped them in the face. I hate this utterly stupid idea that if you lose you can demand a recount and won't accept any result unless they get to win.

I voted to leave as did my wife, while slightly surprised we won it was a bit of fresh air in this stale land but yet the very people we 'HOPE' will do our wishes when voted in decided that it wasn't what 'they' wanted. Sadly many of these career politicians are advisors on boards of banks and other companies making a killing in private money so a leave vote will see them out of pocket...They can't have that, can they..

Nope...Instant calls for referendums and blocks from leaving the EU...

And now the public protest on the street claiming democracy is dead..LOL...

As Gortex says, do they even understand the word?

Most of us here are bored and bloody annoyed with the loony leftists, some of our rights and traditions as British people have been waived by idiots like these. There are certain things we as a country must be able to govern ourselves with trade being one of them, we don't need some jumped up little suit in Brussels saying who we can deal with.

And of course immigration needs stricter controls, lets cherry pick the people...

Sadly the idiots on the streets at this moment protesting would stop all this in a heartbeat, mostly they are liberals or / and well off. As much as I don't trust Boris he seems to be set on keeping the promise made to the British people, so roll on Boris.

a reply to: Mclaneinc

Its a holiday in Texas today so there's not much in the way of "news" being generated or aired. That causes me to question a Brit about Brexit: how much damage is expected to the economy, if any? I've seen apocalyptic rhetoric, but I don't know the "truth" aabout the economic fall outs from Brexit.

Any ideas or indications?

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: neformore

You misunderstand the political system of the UK. The UK is not a presidential system. The Prime Minister is elected by the party in power, but is also an elected MP.

Well, clearly Boris Johnson doesn't understand the political system. That or he's a massive hypocrite. This is what he had to say when Gordon Brown took over from Tony Blair without a general election (even though everyone knew this was planned):

It’s the arrogance. It’s the contempt. That’s what gets me. It’s Gordon Brown’s apparent belief that he can just trample on the democratic will of the British people.

It’s at moments like this that I think the political world has gone mad, and I am alone in detecting the gigantic fraud

The extraordinary thing is that it looks as though he will now be in 10 Downing Street for three years, and without a mandate from the British people. No one elected Gordon Brown as Prime Minister…

Gordon Brown could appease public indignation over that, and secure the democratic mandate he needs, by asking the public to vote at once on him, on the new EU treaty, and on the implications of the devolutionary settlement. Let’s have an election without delay

Can you imagine how much he'd be crying if Brown had also suspended parliament as well - it would have been the end of the world.

I guess none of that matters now?

a reply to: gortex

Silencing/neutering other branches of government in a democracy so that a single leader can do "the will of the people"?

That is how every dictatorship begins.

Will you be pleased when the opposition party employs similar tactics? Will it still be democracy then?

I'd worry if that happened in America.

But in Britain you've got the royal family to protect you from that.

If any one person starts getting too much power, the royal family can speak up at that moment and be like "Hey! Wait! Aren't we supposed to be the absolute dictators?"

Then the people will look at their non-royal PM and start reaching for their pitchforks...

a reply to: gortex

Yep, to protest a democratic result like a referendum is peak stupid. You lost. You aren't in the majority and as such, you don't get your way. Get over it. You don't have to like it, but you do have to accept the reality of it.

a reply to: Extorris

Silencing/neutering other branches of government in a democracy so that a single leader can do "the will of the people"?

I don't think you've thought this through. Boris is trying to do what the people of the UK voted on specifically. They didn't vote for him but they voted to leave the EU. The other branches that are being silenced or neutered are trying to subvert the will of the people. That's how dictatorships start, by subverting the will of the people. You literally can't be a dictator by trying to do what the people voted in a majority for you to do.

It's funny that you're defending the completely anti-democratic branches of government that are trying to undermine the democratic results of the referendum. In other words you're siding with the people who want to ignore democracy because 'they know better.'

Think about the consequences of that. What purpose would any future referendum hold? What power would the people of the UK have to have their voices heard?

Will you be pleased when the opposition party employs similar tactics? Will it still be democracy then?

It will always be democracy when the majority votes for something and it gets implemented, no matter what it is. It's the definition of democracy. Regardless of which bureaucracy is offended and tries not to do it.

a reply to: Extorris

Silencing/neutering other branches of government in a democracy so that a single leader can do "the will of the people"?

3 years of debate and disagreement show nothing has been silenced or neutered , the extension of Article 50 from March to now has given MPs extra time for debate yet here we are still stuck in deadlock
Do you believe the continuation of the deadlock into next year will be beneficial for the country ?

That is how every dictatorship begins.

There will likely be a General Election next month , talk of Dictatorships is just silly.

Will you be pleased when the opposition party employs similar tactics? Will it still be democracy then?

The opposition parties are and have been employing every tactic in the book to subvert the will of the people , now they're trying to bring the government that is trying to deliver the will of the people down , is that Democracy ?

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: Extorris

Silencing/neutering other branches of government in a democracy so that a single leader can do "the will of the people"?

3 years of debate and disagreement show nothing has been silenced or neutered , the extension of Article 50 from March to now has given MPs extra time for debate yet here we are still stuck in deadlock
Do you believe the continuation of the deadlock into next year will be beneficial for the country ?

That is how every dictatorship begins.

There will likely be a General Election next month , talk of Dictatorships is just silly.

Will you be pleased when the opposition party employs similar tactics? Will it still be democracy then?

The opposition parties are and have been employing every tactic in the book to subvert the will of the people , now they're trying to bring the government that is trying to deliver the will of the people down , is that Democracy ?

For those complaining about proroging Parliament and 'having time to debate (which they will have anyway), there is a simple question to ask them...

What is your solution to leaving the EU, given the EU will not offer us a deal that Parliament is happy with?
Not one of them has ever given an answer. I'd love to hear one from them - any of them.

I suspect they don't answer because it would reveal that their plan is to force the circumstances where we STAY in the EU - and admitting that just wouldn't look very good when they're banging on about how horrible it is that our 'democracy has ended' because parliament has been prorogued.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Extorris

Silencing/neutering other branches of government in a democracy so that a single leader can do "the will of the people"?

I don't think you've thought this through. Boris is trying to do what the people of the UK voted on specifically. They didn't vote for him but they voted to leave the EU. The other branches that are being silenced or neutered are trying to subvert the will of the people.

If employing dishonest/exotic/irregular/unprecedented maneuvers to circumvent and strip other branches of government of their established balance of powers is accepted once under any conditions, then it will be repeated in the near future.

If the "will of the people" is to have an exit from the EU (deal, no deal, whatever) fine, but they need to first vote affirming they choose a system of government that allows the Prime Minister to suspend parliament in order to execute his/her will.

"But it is justified this time" does not work in democracies.

If we are to govern by Polls, recent polls show that 2/3rds of Brits oppose the suspension of parliament.
Is that not the will of the people?

We have two questions, 1) Brexit and conditions of Brexit. 2) Whether the suspension of parliament so that a Prime Minister can execute his/her plans unopposed is acceptable.

If you choose both, you forfeit your right to oppose the maneuver in the future regarding agenda's you oppose.

The end does not justify the means. Long after the debate on Brexit has passed, this maneuver will continue to be employed.

It is an erosion of Britain's democracy and YES it is the way every dictatorship takes root.

"Give me unopposed power now, let me suspend our democracy just this once and I will give you what you want."

It is ALWAYS a leader claiming to do the people's will when they suspend the normal functions of a democracy.

I would feel the exact same way if Boris suspended parliament in order to negotiate staying in the EU, or if he was suspending parliament for the most legitimate or just cause imaginable...the question is NOT "is it the will of the people?"...the question is "do we want a democracy in the future where the PM is afforded this power?"

originally posted by: gortex

Do you believe the continuation of the deadlock into next year will be beneficial for the country ?

No.

Do you believe legitimatizing a Prime Minister suspending Parliament so that they can execute an agenda that Parliament does not agree with is good for the country?

When this scenario repeats itself in the future to execute an agenda you oppose, will you still believe this sacrifice a good price to pay to get what you wanted?

originally posted by: UKTruth

For those complaining about proroging Parliament and 'having time to debate (which they will have anyway), there is a simple question to ask them...

What is your solution to leaving the EU, given the EU will not offer us a deal that Parliament is happy with?
Not one of them has ever given an answer. I'd love to hear one from them - any of them.

Elect new parliament in free elections.

In the US if Congress opposes a President's agenda, the President is not allowed to suspend Congress to get what he wants, that is dictatorship.

The British system of democracy has exhaustive mechanisms in place for the people to change parliament if they are unhappy with their representation.

a reply to: Extorris

Do you believe legitimatizing a Prime Minister suspending Parliament so that they can execute an agenda that Parliament does not agree with is good for the country?

Yes , Parliament is chasing its own tail and has been for the last couple of years , the country needs a government concentrating on it not the never ending drama of Brexit , another delay to Article 50 will just prolong the impasse.
It isn't unconstitutional neither is it illegal so I see it as a desperate measure in a desperate situation.

When this scenario repeats itself in the future to execute an agenda you oppose, will you still believe this sacrifice a good price to pay to get what you wanted?

I'm guessing you're a Remainer.

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: UKTruth

For those complaining about proroging Parliament and 'having time to debate (which they will have anyway), there is a simple question to ask them...

What is your solution to leaving the EU, given the EU will not offer us a deal that Parliament is happy with?
Not one of them has ever given an answer. I'd love to hear one from them - any of them.

Elect new parliament in free elections.

In the US if Congress opposes a President's agenda, the President is not allowed to suspend Congress to get what he wants, that is dictatorship.

The British system of democracy has exhaustive mechanisms in place for the people to change parliament if they are unhappy with their representation.

It appears you don't really understand what proroguing Parliament is and the very legal mechanism we have this country.
General Election you say? Nope, the people blocking the Govt don;t want one and will vote against it.

The Remainers are not going to agree to anything that breaks the impasse.

Just so you're clear, they are going to vote today to REMOVE No Deal as an option... this means that we simply can't leave the EU until THEY give us a deal we want. If THEY decide not to give us a deal that will pass parliament, we stay in....forever Think about that and let it sink in.

When it does sink in , you will understand why Remainers in Parliament are traitors to this country.

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: gortex

Do you believe the continuation of the deadlock into next year will be beneficial for the country ?

No.

Do you believe legitimatizing a Prime Minister suspending Parliament so that they can execute an agenda that Parliament does not agree with is good for the country?

When this scenario repeats itself in the future to execute an agenda you oppose, will you still believe this sacrifice a good price to pay to get what you wanted?

With all due repsect, you need to first get a grasp of what Proroguing Parliament is... then ask questions based on that new knowledge.

When you say , "legitimatizing a Prime Minister suspending Parliament so that they can execute an agenda that Parliament does not agree with"... you are asking an ignorant question. You are free to do that, of course, but it's still ignorant. You can confirm this by following the news today. Parliament ARE indeed debating Brexit and will be voting on removing the Prime Ministers bargaining position. Given that reality, it seems pointless to answer your uninformed question.

a reply to: UKTruth

I suspect they don't answer because it would reveal that their plan is to force the circumstances where we STAY in the EU

Agreed , the only good Brexit is no Brexit , if they have to ride roughshod over a decision of the many then so be it ... all in the name of Democracy.

originally posted by: gortex


I'm guessing you're a Remainer.

I am not even a Brit. I am an American. I did enjoy the weakening British Pound though while visiting London this summer.

You failed to answer my question.

When this scenario repeats itself in the future to execute an agenda you oppose, will you still believe this sacrifice a good price to pay to get what you wanted?

a reply to: Extorris

Any case should be judged on its merits , Parliament isn't a sacred beast nor is it always right.

The people said No to Iraq but Parliament disagreed , we were right then and I believe we are right now.

originally posted by: Extorris

originally posted by: gortex


I'm guessing you're a Remainer.

I am not even a Brit. I am an American. I did enjoy the weakening British Pound though while visiting London this summer.

You failed to answer my question.

When this scenario repeats itself in the future to execute an agenda you oppose, will you still believe this sacrifice a good price to pay to get what you wanted?

I didn't answer it because your question has no merit. The proroguing of Parliament is not stopping opposition to the Govt's agenda (delivering on the people's vote), so there is no sacrifice I need to consider.