ATS: Chavez Accuses U.S. Of Murder Plot

Muaddib,

I suggest you cite your sources to substantiate your claims that Hugo Chavez is highly unpopular by the majority of his citizenry. I think this following site may answer some of our questions in regards to the United States agitation over oil prices being raised by Mr. Chavez to further battle the 80 percent poverty rate in his country, and his Socialist reforms that the U.S. seems to find unhealty to thier highly capitalistic endevours.

Socialism is no communism, nor is Venezuala, if anything, it's a mixed economy.

www.canadiandimension.mb.ca...

Chavez won Presidential elections in 1998 and again in 2000 by the largest majority in four decades. He has been governing Venezuela following the principles of a new social movement called the Bolivarianism, named after the South American independence hero, Simón Bol’var. Nearly all Venezuelans were eager for drastic change. They wanted a new government that would eradicate corruption and graft, and redirect the money from the vast oil fields away from the multinationals towards the 80% of the Venezuelans living in poverty.

Christian Parenti, professor at the New College of California believes that "Venezuela is an example of a people struggling to create an alternative, attempting to reform capitalism into a more egalitarian, healthier system." Parenti went so far as to say that, "In fact, perhaps Venezuela is the truest democracy in the world today."

PLOT, PINOCHET STYLE

Professor James Petras of the State University of New York, correspondent for the Spanish magazine, Rebelión, believes that the United States has been leading a campaign to destabilize Venezuela. "The tactics being used are very similar to those used in Chile," Petras explains, "I was in Chile when a very similar campaign was organized. Civilians are used to create a feeling of chaos, and a false picture of Chavez as 'dictator' is established, and then the military is incited to make a coup for the sake of the country."

Petras asserts that another important figure in the foreign-sponsored destabilization campaign is Alfredo Peña, the Mayor of Caracas, Petras says that "Peña was in Washington being groomed for the replacement."

A December 9 New York Times report states that, "Alfredo Peña may just be the mayor of Caracas, but that did not stop him from visiting the State Department and the World Bank in Washington ... antagonizing his rival, President Hugo Chavez."

Wait there a second....are you saying that this "Revolucion" is being done by liberals?..... so, are you saying that liberals are communists in disguise?... Because "Revolucion" is linked with the Marxist Leninist ideology.... the same "Revolucion" that happened in Cuba...the same "People's Revolution" that happened in Russia and made the country communist...

What are you talking about? Have you read the Communist Manifesto? Revolution, according to Karl Marx, revolution must occur violently to par the violent treatment used by the BOURGEOIS against the PROLETARIANS.

I don't see this occuring in Venezuela.

In depicting the most general phases of the development of the proletariat, we traced the more or less veiled civil war, raging within existing society, up to the point where that war breaks out into open revolution, and where the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie lays the foundation for the sway of the proletariat.

Hitherto, every form of society has been based, as we have already seen, on the antagonism of oppressing and oppressed classes. But in order to oppress a class, certain conditions must be assured to it under which it can, at least, continue its slavish existence. The serf, in the period of serfdom, raised himself to membership in the commune, just as the petty bourgeois, under the yoke of the feudal absolutism, managed to develop into a bourgeois. The modern laborer, on the contrary, instead of rising with the process of industry, sinks deeper and deeper below the conditions of existence of his own class. He becomes a pauper, and pauperism develops more rapidly than population and wealth. And here it becomes evident that the bourgeoisie is unfit any longer to be the ruling class in society, and to impose its conditions of existence upon society as an overriding law. It is unfit to rule because it is incompetent to assure an existence to its slave within his slavery, because it cannot help letting him sink into such a state, that it has to feed him, instead of being fed by him. Society can no longer live under this bourgeoisie, in other words, its existence is no longer compatible with society.

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Muaddib,

I suggest you cite your sources to substantiate your claims that Hugo Chavez is highly unpopular by the majority of his citizenry.
...............

i have done that...time and again.... presenting facts about the oposition to Chavez and what is happening in Venezuela....

i will look for the thread once more, but I am certain some members are going to accuse me again of using the same links to prove my point.....

BTW Zero Deep...you have been one of the people who ahve posted in previous threads about this same topic and where i presented links and facts backing what I was saying....anyways....

On Thursday, more than one million people from all over Venezuela concentrated in the capital, Caracas, to express their discontent against the government of President Hugo Chavez.

Independent sources placed the number of demonstrators at between 1.2 million and 2 million, while official sources refused to estimate the number. During a confrontation between pro- and anti-Chavez demonstrators, a man was killed, shot in the head.

The demonstration was called by the group ?Democratic Coordinator¦, which unites all political formations which want President Chavez to resign.

Marcia MIRANDA
PRAVDA.Ru

Excerpted from.
english.pravda.ru...

Let's see the site of a Venezuelan Navy Lt, and some of the information provided there.

By Johan Freitas, in Caracas

To hear Chavez tell it, he has the support of the vast majority of the Venezuelan people. He was elected in 1998 by a landslide, then re-elected over and over again. - Or was he...?

The Chavez myth is easily broken. Numbers don't lie. Chavez between 1998 and 2000 only won by default -- not because the Venezuelans supported him, but simply because they didn't bother to vote. In the last five elections, the absentee vote was the big winner.
What elected Hugo Chavez was not an overwhelming majority, as his supporters like to claim, but overwhelming apathy and disillusionment with the political system.

Venezuela has approximately 24 million inhabitants. The number of potential voters vary from election to election, but roughly 11 million are registered to vote. Of those, Chavez voters numbered between 2.8 million and 3.7 million, equivalent to between 26% and 35% of the registered voters.

Excerpted from.
militaresdemocraticos.surebase.com...

Opposition claims 3.7 million signatures support a constitutional amendment

According to figures provided by Sumate, the company hired to process the opposition petition held on February 2, over 3.7 million signatures were collected on the day across the country in support of a constitutional amendment that would shorten President Hugo Chavez Frias' term in office to four years, allowing an early revocatory referendum on his mandate.

Sumate claims a 1.3 million Venezuelans called for revocatory referendums on several National Assembly deputies, with Tachira State's Julio Garcia, Cilia Flores, Tarek William Saab, Iris Valera and Luis Tascon.

3.6 million signatures called for further help from the international community and 2.8 million backed striking Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) workers.

Excerpted from.
www.vheadline.com...

I can't continue this discussion as i have a family party to attend to, anyways...try to not to keep falling for the communist propaganda folks...

Hm, taken from militaresdemocraticos.surebase.com...

"The Chavez myth is easily broken. Numbers don't lie. Chavez between 1998 and 2000 only won by default -- not because the Venezuelans supported him, but simply because they didn't bother to vote."

It doesn't matter if he only won by default, it doesn't matter if people didn't vote for him, more peopel still voted for him than the opposition, making him the more popular.

[edit on 5-3-2005 by phixion]

A bit more information with links:


U.S. Aid Used to Topple Governments


"NED already is embroiled in a dispute over its alleged support for groups opposed to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a fiery populist increasingly at odds with the United States. During the run-up to last year's presidential recall referendum in Venezuela, Chavez charged that NED-financed groups were conspiring with the Bush administration to defeat him."

story.news.yahoo.com


Also see:
Who is Organising these Spontaneous Popular Uprisings ?


.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by The Vagabond
...........................
US policy in the region has become a dismal failure and Latin America is voting in liberals who will move away from the USA, strengthen local trading blocks, and improve relations overseas as an alternative to being America's punk.

Wait there a second....are you saying that this "Revolucion" is being done by liberals?..... so, are you saying that liberals are communists in disguise?... Because "Revolucion" is linked with the Marxist Leninist ideology.... the same "Revolucion" that happened in Cuba...the same "People's Revolution" that happened in Russia and made the country communist...

Wow, if you take my statement and tie in 3 or 4 completely unrelated points (written with the sloppy internet punctuation of a 13 year old in a chat room I might add), you almost make an extremely poor response to what I have said.

What I am saying is very clear. South America has selected liberalism and in some cases limited socialism (not communism) because past governments, typically moderate or conservative, have sold their people out to the predatory economic practices of American corporations. If America keeps screwing people it only stands to reason that the rift between us will grow. If we don't learn to mind our manners we are going to become cut off from many nations we depend upon for trade, and we will then go the way of Russia and Cuba. In case you haven't noticed, American capitalism only endures because we allow ourselves to go DEEPLY in debt and from time to time we get ourselves into a war, or play a third party role to somebody elses war, just to make a buck. We're not exactly so economically or militarily strong that we can afford to drive key resource producers and entire strategic areas away with out inappropriate policies.

EDIT: By the way Mauddib- you are aware that both of our last two presidents won their first term with less than 50% support from registered voters, correct? You can talk about protest numbers all you want- why didn't they win the election? Why couldn't they even successfully carry out a coup? Chavez supporters got him elected twice and protected him from a coup. Where were these oppressed masses then? My guess is that they were at home being apathetic, just like they were doing during those protests, where the numbers were almost certainly grossly inflated. The elections had international monitors. Did the protests have that?

[edit on 5-3-2005 by The Vagabond]

As I recall Castro once said the US had plans to kill him and that was over 40 yers ago. Nuffffff Said.

[edit on 3/5/2005 by shots]

BTW Zero Deep...you have been one of the people who ahve posted in previous threads about this same topic and where i presented links and facts backing what I was saying....anyways....

Regardless, that was another thread, whilst this is another. I'm not sure where you learned to debate from, but where I come from, one must be able to provide substantial evidence to second ones claims, it's just proper decorum; find it a nucance all you want, but this is ATS, and we abide by a strict moto: Deny Ignorance.

Also, I've never posted in regards to this issue before. Were I regular poster I would have realized that and halted myself from make tautologous remarks.

I can't continue this discussion as i have a family party to attend to, anyways...try to not to keep falling for the communist propaganda folks...

What Communist propaganda? As I have asked you before, are you well aware of the ideology which is Communism and Socialism, as it were, are you well aware of the differences aswell? There is no propaganda here, nor is there any reason to believe so, not when the American Goverment has been known to oust democraticly elected officials, and contintues to do so at whim as seems currently evident.

Right now Chavez is doing what Theodore Roosevelt -also more socialist than any other U.S. president and was elected 4 times into office- did for America to combat the poverty and poor economy.

Deep

Originally posted by shots
As I recall Castro once said the US had plans to kill him and that was over 40 yers ago. Nuffffff Said.

[edit on 3/5/2005 by shots]

But in fact we were trying to kill him. It's almost a joke these days. They talk about how stupid some of our plans for it were on the history channel from time to time. The exploding cigar? Exploding sea shell? The contract on his life with the mafia?
Believe it or not, America really sucks at locating and killing a specific target. We're good for body count, but we're strictly wholesale. We can't fill just one body bag, certainly not with a specific person. Hitler, Saddam, Casto, Bin Laden, Mullah Omar, etc. (i know we finally got Saddam and Hitler, but only because we invaded their countries, which defeats the purpose). Frankly if we actually find a way to kill Hugo Chavez I consider that Natural Selection at work. That's not to say that we aren't going to try.

[edit on 5-3-2005 by The Vagabond]

Originally posted by soficrow
A bit more information with links:


U.S. Aid Used to Topple Governments


"NED already is embroiled in a dispute over its alleged support for groups opposed to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, a fiery populist increasingly at odds with the United States. During the run-up to last year's presidential recall referendum in Venezuela, Chavez charged that NED-financed groups were conspiring with the Bush administration to defeat him."
.

Soficrow....just one question.....why don't you show what countries are helping Chavez, and who is Chavez helping out?.... as always, your disdain for the country you live in just amazes me....

“I was Chavez’s own presidential pilot, and I know a lot of the inside deals from the presidential palace. With my knowledge, I must now warn Venezuela and the rest of the world: The time for freedom is running out. It is now or never” – Juan Diaz Castillo

JRN: How long were you a pilot for President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela?

DIAZ: I did one year as Chavez’s pilot and another year as operations chief for the Air Force.

JRN: Did President Hugo Chavez offer money to the Taliban? Is that correct?

DIAZ: Yes, that is correct.

JRN: How did this come about?

DIAZ: This came about as the result of a directive from the president who wanted to put Venezuelan troops into Afghanistan [on the side of the Taliban]. Also, in addition, he wanted to bring in humanitarian aid, medicines and clothes, and this was going to be done with the Venezuelan Air Force on top of the financial aid that was offered.

JRN: When was this aid offered?

DIAZ: After the middle of September 2001.

JRN: Chavez wanted to send troops to Afghanistan?

DIAZ: The initial order from Chavez was to send troops in Venezuelan planes [to help the Taliban], but economically this was unfeasible. Also, it was operationally unfeasible because the United States had an air blockade in effect against Afghanistan.

.............

Excerpted from.
www.financialsense.com...

Chavesz and castro are also helping each other out...hey it happens when two people are alike, one thing which Chavez keep proclaiming about him and castro....as well as helping other dictatorships and helping terrorists against the US....

Evidence That Chavez Aided Bin Laden & Al Qaeda


PRESS CONFERENCE

DATE: Wednesday, January 29, 2003
TIME: 9:30 a.m.
PLACE: Sheraton Biscayne Bay Hotel, Room C
495 Brickell Ave., Miami, FL 33131


(Washington, DC / Miami, FL) Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption and abuse, said today that it has filed suit on behalf of a victim and survivor of the September 11th terrorist attacks against the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, its President, Hugo Chavez, and the Venezuelan Ambassador to India, Walter Marquez, for their material, financial, and other support and assistance of Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda terror network.

Excerpted from.
www.judicialwatch.org...

"I must warn America about Chavez," Diaz said. "He is a danger, not just to his own people but to the whole region."

Diaz is one of more than 100 military officers who have quit the Chavez regime as the president tries to hang on to power amid a month-long general strike that has cut off oil exports, his primary source of income.

For the past 77 days, many of the officers have relocated to Plaza Altamira, a major square in Caracas, vowing to protest along with thousands of Venezuelans until Chavez leaves. Calling themselves members of a pro-democracy resistance movement against Chavez, the officers have set up a website in English, MilitaresDemocraticos.com, through which they warn of the president's alleged efforts to make the country a terrorist state.

Among the resisters are the former military attache in Washington, Enrique Medina Gomez; former head of the navy, Hector Ramirez; ex-U.N. attache for Venezuela, Carlos Alfonzo Martinez; the inspector general of the National Guard; and nearly 30 other generals.

Excerpted from.
www.worldnetdaily.com...

The following is the account of a woman who married a Muslim who turned out to be an extremist. This does not mean all Muslim people are like this, but this account itself shows the influence that extremist Muslims have in Venezuela.

Although Venezuela is not an Islamic country and in theory will protect its citizens from this type of treatment, I am strongly convinced that the government cannot offer the protection that I need from my husband. Although by law I should be able to live in freedom in Venezuela, yet because of my husbands status and power I know that my life is in danger and my children will be taken away from me by him, no matter where I live in the country.

My husband, because of his links with Islamic groups, is an influential man and has many links with government officials. Venezuela has laws that state that they can protect their citizens, but there are other laws that operate on bribery that have nothing to do with the law of the land. But in actual fact, these are most often the laws that function on the street.

I know my husband well enough to know that because he has good contacts and money, he can and will employ these means to harm or even kill me and to take the children away from me. His intention is to send them back to his family in Syria.

Excerpted from.
www.ncadc.org.uk...

As Washington prepares a high-stakes military venture in the Persian Guff, a growing physical threat is being posed by Iraq, Libya and Iran to the soft underbelly of the United States. Hundreds and possibly thousands of agents from rogue Arab nations are working hard to help President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela take control of south America's largest oil industry and create al-Qaeda-friendly terrorist bases just two hours' flying time from Miami.

Arab advisers now are reinforcing a sizable contingent of Cubans in efforts to reorganize Venezuela's security services, assimilate its industries based on totalitarian models and repress a popular opposition movement. "What happens in Venezuela may affect how you fight a war in Iraq," Gen. James Hill of U.S. Southern Command is reported recently to have told his colleague at U.S. Central Command, Gen. Tommy Franks.

Excerpted from.
www.findarticles.com...

January 15, 2005

HAVANA – In a sharp escalation of tensions between two nations, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez suspended commercial relations with Colombia yesterday until it apologizes for abducting a high-ranking Colombian rebel in the Venezuelan capital.

Excerpted from.
www.signonsandiego.com...

If anyone is a terrorist and a dictator, it is hugo Chavez...


[edit on 6-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Wow, if you take my statement and tie in 3 or 4 completely unrelated points (written with the sloppy internet punctuation of a 13 year old in a chat room I might add), you almost make an extremely poor response to what I have said.

Amazing.... who is trying to discredit who by name calling and insults?....

Since you are so educated, perhaps you would like to speak in some other language, since you seem to think that my english is not good enough for a discussion... Vose fala Portuguese?, oh mejor en español?....

Look chimp....if you want to have an "intelligent conversation" leave your name calling and patronizing out of the forums... unless you want to continue the childish game you seem to like so much....

You are saying that Chavez is a liberal...yet he says himself that his mentor and the moral image that Venezuela must follow is that of fidel castro.... What in fricken hell is fidel castro?..... he is a liberal too?....

Just a moron, not to say something worse, would say that Chavez is a liberal, unless you want to agree that liberalism is nothing more than communism in disguise....

Originally posted by The Vagabond
.....................
EDIT: By the way Mauddib- you are aware that both of our last two presidents won their first term with less than 50% support from registered voters, correct? You can talk about protest numbers all you want- why didn't they win the election? Why couldn't they even successfully carry out a coup? Chavez supporters got him elected twice and protected him from a coup.

First of all, we are not discussing the elections in the US...you were the one whining about me "using unrelated points"....yet you are very good at doing the same thing....

The elections in the US and those of Venezuela are completly different... When liberals can get around 30 million people in the streets of a mayor US city protesting against the government, then you can say that "in some ways the situation is similar" with that of Venezuela... at least having a similar percentage in the amount of protesters out of the total amount of the population in both countries.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Where were these oppressed masses then? My guess is that they were at home being apathetic, just like they were doing during those protests, where the numbers were almost certainly grossly inflated. The elections had international monitors. Did the protests have that?

[edit on 5-3-2005 by The Vagabond]

They were in the streets, getting killed or running away from pro Chavez people who always for "some reason" have people armed when there are protesters in the streets who want Chavez ousted....

[edit on 6-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Anyways...back on topic, Chavez is a liar and a power hungry self proclaimed dictator, he has been lying ever since he was able to get in power...

Here are some of the times he has lied and when he, or those who are with him have been able to use fraud among other things. Here is an excerpt with some of the things he has done, the link also mentions a total of "100 GOOD REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE IN VENEZUELA'S CHAVEZ."

1. Lied about illegal funding during the 1998 election
campaign: President Chavez took $1.5 million in illegal campaign contributions from Spain's Banco Bilbao Viscaya and lied about it. The contributions were only
discovered due to a judicial investigation by judge Baltazar Garzon in Spain. No investigation was carried out in Venezuela before, during, or after the Spanish inquiry.
2. Lied about Bolivar's teachings: President Chavez has consistently portrayed Bolivar - Venezuela's 19th century national - as a proto-Marxist. Scholars agree that Bolivar was no such thing - he was a 19th century style
liberal.
3. Lied about the legality of the June 1999 referendum: President Chavez claimed to have the legal authority to convene a referendum on whether to call a constituent assembly to write a new constitution. The legal framework in force at the time contained no such provision.
4. Lied about the missing payments to FIEM: The government has lied systematically over a period of years
over the funding of the Macroeconomic Stabilization Fund - FIEM - designed to even out oil revenues between high oil price years and low oil price years. In 2001, payments worth $2 billion dollars earmarked for the fund simply disappeared.

Excerpted from.
www.tblog.com...

Muaddib,

I suggest you learn to debate in a mature and rational manner, before you degrade your own image and that of ATSNN News; furthermore, one does not want this thread closed due to ad hominem remarks against other members.

You're touting irrelevant facts that hold no bearing to the topic at hand. You have not answered my questions in regards to Socialism and Communism and have disregarding my comments; this is obviously due to the fact that th ideology you chide vehemently, idealistic as it may be, is beyond your comprehension and you would rather make irellevent claims on certain characters representing an ideology far from it.

Anyways...back on topic, Chavez is a liar and a power hungry self proclaimed dictator, he has been lying ever since he was able to get in power...

Lies like what? This is not on topic first off; the topic was Chavez fear of assination, not Islamic extremists in that country nor fraud.

You stay on topic.

Deep.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
...............

You stay on topic.

Deep.

Zero, perhaps you yourself should actually keep up with what is happening in a thread before you go making accusations and start making ad hominem attacks on people yourself....

My point for presenting links as to the terrorist ties of chavez was in response from soficrow's post about the US aiding in a coup against Chavez, which she presented in this same thread. The other points i was making were in response to Vagabond's own response....that first...

Second, perhaps you should make just a little bit of research yourself before you make claims which you obviously know nothing about.

Third, since it seems clear that you did not know why i was presenting those points which you are calling irrelevant...then perhaps you should not get involved when i was clearly responding to what other people were saying in this thread....

Chavez himself has stated frequently the following.

“I am convinced that the path to a new, better and possible world is not capitalism, the path is socialism”. With this clear statement on his weekly TV programme “Alo Presidente,” Chavez reaffirmed his point of view that socialism is the only way forward to solve the problems of inequality, misery and poverty that millions face in Venezuela and the world today.

Excerpted from.
www.handsoffvenezuela.org...

According to the Marxist doctrine, socialism is but a stage in which capitalist countries go through before becoming communist countries.

In common speech in the Western World, a Communist state is a state governed by a single political party which declares its allegiance to the principles of Marxism-Leninism. The term Communist state originated from the fact that most of the states in question were or are run by parties that called themselves "Communist Party of [country]." Thus, they became known as Communist Party-run states, or simply Communist states. However most of these states called themselves socialist, since in Marxist political theory, socialism is the intermediate stage in reaching communism, which is a condition with no state, so that Communist state is considered an oxymoron.

Excerpted from.
en.wikipedia.org...

Chavez has mentioned many times that fidel castro is his mentor and a moral image that Venezuela must follow. fidel castro, did exactly the same things that Chavez is doing now. fidel lied to the people of Cuba, and sold them the marxist agenda, which is what Chavez is doing.

---edited for errors---

[edit on 6-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Muaddib,

I suggest you learn to debate in a mature and rational manner, before you degrade your own image and that of ATSNN News; furthermore, one does not want this thread closed due to ad hominem remarks against other members.

And do tell me Zerodeep, why didn't you, or anyone else who does not want to read about ad hominem remarks, i am one of those btw.., did not say anything before to Vagabond?....

Ah...when it is a Republican responding to insults and attacks is when you and others have to bring this up....


[edit on 6-3-2005 by Muaddib]

UPDATE:

Venezuela threatens to cut off oil to U.S.:

www.newkerala.com...

The world's 5th largest oil exporter, Venezuela has been the target of Washington's ire in recent weeks and months, causing the left-wing Chavez much dismay.During his visit Friday to India -- where Chavez is hammering out the details of an oil agreement with the leading developing nation -- the Venezuelan leader made it very clear that if the United States "hurts" his country in any way, the oil values will be shut off.

Originally posted by Muaddib
And do tell me Zerodeep, why didn't you, or anyone else who does not want to read about ad hominem remarks, i am one of those btw.., did not say anything before to Vagabond?....
[edit on 6-3-2005 by Muaddib]

I don't pretend to speak for ZeroDeep, but perhaps he was more concerned with the member to has consistently showed up to play political troll in every thread about Venezuela that comes up, not to mention several other topics.
At any rate, none of us want to the see the thread closed and I am finished going back and for with you endlessly over the same points, so you should be happy to know that you have little more to fear from me until you find some new dogma to spew.
Vagabond Out.

[edit on 6-3-2005 by The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Soficrow....just one question.....why don't you show what countries are helping Chavez, and who is Chavez helping out?.... as always, your disdain for the country you live in just amazes me....

Again, I do NOT have disdain for the USA. I have a great love for America.

OTH, I have nothing but contempt for our corporate over-government and their nasty sneaky tricks.

...I also have a great deal of respect for Chavez.

IMO - the Venezuelan revolucion is akin to the American Revolution.

Brava Venezuela!

It has been clear that because the evidence I present does not fit with your agenda Vagabond that you try to discredit it time and again....and since you really can't discredit it, you try to do it by throwing insults..

The evidence is there... it is not that i only think this is happening, the evidence itself backs up what I am saying, and what a large mayority of Venezuelans see as the marxist propaganda that Chavez is trying to push.

Chavez learnt pretty good what castro had to teach him.... castro himself has yelled more than enough times that the US are trying to oust him or kill him. If the US government is really trying again to do this, perhaps it hasn't crossed the mind of some members around this board that it is due to the fact that Chavez, just like fidel, is a known terrorist sponsor.... they don't only send doctors to countries which have terrorists who want to oust democratic governments, and are part of the "Revolucion".... They both actively send other forms of aids, including money and manpower.

Ah, but according to some in here, when the evidence comes from true democratic countries, is all a lie and propaganda done by the US government...riiight.

[edit on 6-3-2005 by Muaddib]

[edit on 6-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by soficrow
...I also have a great deal of respect for Chavez.

IMO - the Venezuelan revolucion is akin to the American Revolution.

Brava Venezuela!

Yes...i have also read from some people in here saying they also have a great respect for fidel castro....

It might be your opinion that the "Venezuelan revolucion is akin to the American Revolution," but that I remember from American history, most if not all Americans at the time of the revolution agreed with the new form of government that was being set up..... In Venezuela that is not happening.... on the contrary, a large part of the population, which has demonstrated to be at least as many or more than those who back up Chavez want him ousted....