Brexit and the Deal We Were Promised.

originally posted by: FieldMarshalMatt
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

No no no , they said would negotiate " the terms " of a deal before leaving . Now you're saying they promised a deal - no they didn't .

Exactly what they said would happen , has happened . The 'terms' that Europe are offering are unacceptable , and there will no deal on those terms .

They also said there would be a UK/EU treaty in place by May 2020 as part of that....it's not happening.

originally posted by: Robert Reynolds
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

No one was in any position to promise anything and they shouldn't have, but the vote wasn't conditional on any deal.

I agree with that however its worth remembering that they were selling Brexit to the people at the time on the basis of this deal. While I agree that its impossible to say what impact this had on the people who voted for Brexit the fact remains.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: FieldMarshalMatt
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

No no no , they said would negotiate " the terms " of a deal before leaving . Now you're saying they promised a deal - no they didn't .

Exactly what they said would happen , has happened . The 'terms' that Europe are offering are unacceptable , and there will no deal on those terms .

They also said there would be a UK/EU treaty in place by May 2020 as part of that....it's not happening.

Maybe that's because nobody promised anything !

originally posted by: FieldMarshalMatt

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: FieldMarshalMatt
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

No no no , they said would negotiate " the terms " of a deal before leaving . Now you're saying they promised a deal - no they didn't .

Exactly what they said would happen , has happened . The 'terms' that Europe are offering are unacceptable , and there will no deal on those terms .

They also said there would be a UK/EU treaty in place by May 2020 as part of that....it's not happening.

Maybe that's because nobody promised anything !

I am honestly baffled by this.

Have you read the quotes in the OP.

I really do feel like there are some who just want to carry on believing this because its convent to their politics rather than it being the true. They said by 2020 there would be a uk/eu treaty in place, they talk extensively about establishing a deal with the EU before we leave, I have not quoted everything in full but honestly just read the links provided.

Now I do agree that they made a promise they couldn't keep and I also understand that for some this promise was never something that mattered to them either way they were voting to leave but it doesn't change the fact.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Seems to me that the EU is not acting in good faith.

Ya’ll are in the middle of a cold war and you expect your side to keep good faith and aren’t critical of the enemy.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: FieldMarshalMatt

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: FieldMarshalMatt
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

No no no , they said would negotiate " the terms " of a deal before leaving . Now you're saying they promised a deal - no they didn't .

Exactly what they said would happen , has happened . The 'terms' that Europe are offering are unacceptable , and there will no deal on those terms .

They also said there would be a UK/EU treaty in place by May 2020 as part of that....it's not happening.

Maybe that's because nobody promised anything !

I am honestly baffled by this.

Have you read the quotes in the OP.

I really do feel like there are some who just want to carry on believing this because its convent to their politics rather than it being the true. They said by 2020 there would be a uk/eu treaty in place, they talk extensively about establishing a deal with the EU before we leave, I have not quoted everything in full but honestly just read the links provided.

Now I do agree that they made a promise they couldn't keep and I also understand that for some this promise was never something that mattered to them either way they were voting to leave but it doesn't change the fact.

They haven't kept any promises over brexit, including the promise to honour the actual result. If you are going to moan about any broken promises, it should be that, not the small details.

Double post, sorry.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Yes read the quotes but not the links . Making the deal the EU want is simply imprudent , they set out their terms and they won't budge . Asking the original vote leave campaign literature to be binding upon Johnson's foot , 3 years on , belies something convenient to remain camp politics : semantics .

a reply to: Xabi87

including the promise to honour the actual result. If you are going to moan about any broken promises

I think we are leaving and I think we are leaving with no deal.

The Cooper-Letwin bill was just a bit of a stop-gap in the hope that they might be able to sort something out but its not happening, the deal as promised is not going to come to fruition and neither is the treaty.

Remember when Liam fox said that getting a free trade deal with the EU should be the easiest thing in the world.....

This thread should get merged with ye olde Mandela effect threads. In this timeline every leave talking head promised a deal. Repeatedly claiming nobody ever promised a deal doesn't make it so in our dimension.

The only other explanation is gaslighting, to have a lie repeated so often you actually believe said lie, what Britain has seen in under two months is a handful of tory hopefuls (bar Rory Stewart) repeatedly claim they never promised any deal and, now a good chunk of the population believes that. In the months prior we witnessed gaslighting to the point Diane Abbott and Owen Jones are labelled the elites not jacob rees mogg, nigel farage or alexander boris de pfeffel johnson.

Maybe the people here claiming farage never promised a Norwegian deal, david Swiss Toni davis and his Switzerland deal and boris with his Canada plus plus plus deal think they are gaslighting us? It's scary how gullible and easily manipulated our country has proven to be.

a reply to: FieldMarshalMatt

I agree with most of what your saying here, let me just highlight that I am not framing this OP as either a Remain or Leave argument but rather just simply informing the debate by highlighting what the VoteLeave camp were promising in the run up to the vote.

Making the deal the EU want is simply imprudent , they set out their terms and they won't budge .

So I pretty much 100% agree with you on this, they're playing hard ball, its probably as much their fault as it is the governments that the promise of this deal is not being delivered.

a reply to: contextual

Amazing post dude!

This thread should get merged with ye olde Mandela effect threads. In this timeline every leave talking head promised a deal. Repeatedly claiming nobody ever promised a deal doesn't make it so in our dimension.

Honestly I was going to discuss this in the context of a Mandela effect but I didn't really want to get drawn into a discussion about that phenomenon but focus on the basic premise that a deal was promised.

The only other explanation is gaslighting, to have a lie repeated so often you actually believe said lie

I blame the media for this to a certain extent, I don't think those who are saying we were never promised a deal are deliberately lying about it, I just think its a falsehood thats been said so often that people now just believe it with out actually fact checking it.

Interesting thoughts thanks for posting.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin
What was on the ballot.
leave or no leave?
leave with a deal ?

you know, the actual ballot as it is kind of important

if it wasn't on the ballot how would one expect it?

When you go to put your cross in the box for a political party you don't get a full manifesto attached to your ballot paper, the expectation is that you as a voter know who you are voting for and what the implications of that vote could be based on the promises of whoever you are voting for. Brexit is much the same in that sense, we knew that if we voted to remain then it would trigger Camerons new deal with the EU, just like if we left one of the things that was expected was a negotiation for a new deal. Democracy works best when the electorate are informed in my opinion, now am fairly confident that not everyone who voted to leave was checking out exactly what was being promised in the event of a vote leave but the promise remains. Just because it was not explicitly stated on the ballot doesn't change what VoteLeave where campaigning on and promising.

I also think that the vote to leave was very vague there are several ways you could potentially leave the EU and the future relationship could take several forms while not being a full EU member and I think that also adds to the complexity of this issue. Brexit could mean leaving the EU as a full member but remaining a part of the ECC for example although most Brexiteers wouldn't approve of that its one interpretation of Brexit.

To use another example when the Irish went to vote on the Lisbon treaty their ballot paper didn't come with a copy of the treaty attached, when Scottish devolution was voted on the paper didn't come with a full list of what powers would be dissolved and how the system of parliament would work. I could go on but you get the idea.

You just sunk your own argument.
You are correct that when we vote we do not have a full manifesto attached to the ballot paper - and even if we did no one would read it.
There is not a single elected govt. in my lifetime that has stuck exactly to their manifesto. Your argument therefore is that ALL votes are void, which of course is bunk as a manifesto is always a stated intent.
The leave campaign wanted to AND STILL want to do a deal.
The fall back is no deal - obviously.
What you are doing is looking for anything you can find to justify the treasonous behaviour of a percentage of remainers.

So, the people voted to LEAVE, the plan was to do a deal with the EU. We can't reach agreement with the EU.
Logically that means we leave with no deal.

Finally - please can you link directly to this quote you referenced:

Taking back control is a carful change, not a sudden stop – We will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave

I'd like to see exactly where it is on the website to understand it's prominance and context.

I would also point out that a new deal IS and HAS been negotiated.
There is no reference to halting the process if we can't negotiate a deal successfully.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

they're playing hard ball, its probably as much their fault as it is the governments that the promise of this deal is not being delivered.

Ahem , dear alien on a phone , there were no promises of a deal . As for it being anyone's 'fault' there 'll be no deal , you're implying that a bad deal would be better than no deal . Do you consider that to be the case ?

No deal = freedom
Deal = binding obligations

Just weighing them up there ..

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Xabi87

including the promise to honour the actual result. If you are going to moan about any broken promises

I think we are leaving and I think we are leaving with no deal.

The Cooper-Letwin bill was just a bit of a stop-gap in the hope that they might be able to sort something out but its not happening, the deal as promised is not going to come to fruition and neither is the treaty.

Remember when Liam fox said that getting a free trade deal with the EU should be the easiest thing in the world.....

Nah, i don't think we are and our government has never intended to leave. They wanted to scare the EU into a better deal than we currently have and it backfired big time.

Now they have to act stupid as # for a while so everyone thinks they are incapable and we need the EU.

originally posted by: FieldMarshalMatt
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

they're playing hard ball, its probably as much their fault as it is the governments that the promise of this deal is not being delivered.

Ahem , dear alien on a phone , there were no promises of a deal . As for it being anyone's 'fault' there 'll be no deal , you're implying that a bad deal would be better than no deal . Do you consider that to be the case ?

No deal = freedom
Deal = binding obligations

Just weighing them up there ..

Correct. There was a stated intent to negotiate a deal, but no promise of a deal and certainly no inkling of any intent to halt Brexit if there was no deal.
The OP is reaching for any justification to ignore democracy.

a reply to: UKTruth

To be clear I am not framing this as a argument to justify remaining in the EU its just me pointing out that the promise was made.

Now you asked exactly where that quote could be found as I have provided the link on the OP, if you scroll down to the bottom of that page there is a slideshow (which they also used as a official leaflet) its on page 10 I believe.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: FieldMarshalMatt

I agree with most of what your saying here, let me just highlight that I am not framing this OP as either a Remain or Leave argument but rather just simply informing the debate by highlighting what the VoteLeave camp were promising in the run up to the vote.

Making the deal the EU want is simply imprudent , they set out their terms and they won't budge .

So I pretty much 100% agree with you on this, they're playing hard ball, its probably as much their fault as it is the governments that the promise of this deal is not being delivered.

Nope. There was no promise of a deal.
There was a statement that a deal would be negotiated.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: UKTruth

To be clear I am not framing this as a argument to justify remaining in the EU its just me pointing out that the promise was made.

Now you asked exactly where that quote could be found as I have provided the link on the OP, if you scroll down to the bottom of that page there is a slideshow (which they also used as a official leaflet) its on page 10 I believe.

Again, nope.
There was no promise of a deal.
Reread your own referenced quote.

...Yes I eventually found the statement in the slideshow. It's the 4th bullet point buried in the presentation on slide 11 and states an intent to negotiate a new deal. Not a promise of a deal. Any person who takes the time to read the website can see clearly that the campaign is about leaving, not leaving IF we do a deal.

You are seriously reaching to try and tie a deal to a condition of leaving - that is simply not true now and never was tru, either in the campaign or since.

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: UKTruth

To be clear I am not framing this as a argument to justify remaining in the EU its just me pointing out that the promise was made.

Now you asked exactly where that quote could be found as I have provided the link on the OP, if you scroll down to the bottom of that page there is a slideshow (which they also used as a official leaflet) its on page 10 I believe.

Again, nope.
There was no promise of a deal.
Reread your own referenced quote.

...Yes I eventually found the statement in the slideshow. It's the 4th bullet point buried in the presentation and states an intent to negotiate a new deal. Not a promise of a deal. Any person who takes the time to read the website can see clearly that the campaign is about leaving, not leaving IF we do a deal.

Again, I am not claiming that this is argument against not leaving I only highlighting that they said we would leave with a negotiated deal and thats probably not going to happen.

Kinda starting to feel you're getting into Stawman territory here.

This thread is pure propaganda.

Gotta say given that I have mostly used sources from the VoteLeave Website or the leaders of the Vote Leave campaign I find this quite funny.

...smart edit dude but am struggling to keep up with them and its past my bed time.