Brexit and the Deal We Were Promised.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

May's team negotiated (of sorts) but negotiation isn't a guarantee of securing an acceptable deal , the EU will come back to the table as it becomes clear we are ready to leave without a deal , Germany can't afford a No Deal and the new EU president is a German Merkel ally , we buy more stuff from them then they do from us.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: panoz77

So you are under the assumption that a vote based on "political promises" is written in stone? That politicians don't lie or break campaign promises????

My issue is not so much with them breaking the promise (although yeah that sucks) but rather with those who want to pretend that the promise was never made in the first place when its quite clear that it was.

Your missing the point. Promises are meaningless, it's what was on the ballot that matters, and yes, if you have a ballot measure up for a vote (let's say a tax increase for a school levey), it is pretty clear, you either want the tax or do not want the tax, they don't include any conditions.

As stated above, you were promised they would attempt to "negotiate" a deal, they did and couldn't "make that deal". So that means BREXIT NO DEAL.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

May's team negotiated (of sorts) but negotiation isn't a guarantee of securing an acceptable deal , the EU will come back to the table as it becomes clear we are ready to leave without a deal , Germany can't afford a No Deal and the new EU president is a German Merkel ally , we buy more stuff from them then they do from us.

Mays deal was awful!

You have to admit, its possible to say that at the very least the ease and nature of the deal was oversold at the very least.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: mightmight

Lets settle it answer me this:

Where the details of the Lisbon Treaty on the Irish ballot or where the specific powers to be devolved to the Scottish parliament on the 1997 Scottish referendum or did the 2011 AV referendum specifically state what alternative voting system would be used?

The answer to all of the above is no.

The treaties of Lisbon and Nice were legally binding documents, the Irish people knew / could have known exactly what they were voting on. So the details of the treaty were very much on the ballot.
'Leave the European Union' was never defined in a legally binding way and thus it's impossible to say today what the people were voting on beyond the most basic question.
The same goes for what you had with that Scotland Referendum. The people voted for the establishment of a Scottish Parliament. You can't argue something like 'X campaigned for the establishment of a Scottish Parliament to increase taxes. The people voted for the establishment of a Parliament, thus they voted to increase taxes because x campaigned for it'.
You also can’t argue that the British people chose this or that particular type of alternative vote system in 2011. Only that they decided for Parliament to implement such a system.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
In all of these cases the votes where cast with the electorate being expected to know what they were voting for.

Tell me then why is the 2016 referendum any different.

Your premise is wrong. A referendum is a vote on a very particular question. There are always many different views on the issue in question. You can’t make an argument for the one being in favor of one particular viewpoint unless its explicitly expressed on the ballot or in whatever document being voted on in the first place.

So it’s quite simple. The people voted to leave. They did not vote on leave with a deal or without one. That’s up to the Sovereign, IE Parliament to decide.
Both is acceptable as long as the UK leaves. It would be a violation of the peoples decision not to leave because Parliament couldnt agree on a deal.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Xabi87

This thread is a complete load of nonsense, we were never promised a deal

VoteLeaves website says differently.

They even went as far to say this would all be in place be May of 2020 and lets face it none of us expect that to happen.

And? I use my brain to think, not the internet. You can't guarantee a successful negotiation.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Being that I am an internet expert on Europe and it's ally, Germany, I think I am qualified to comment on this.

Parliament (also known in England as "the loo") is filled with idiots.

Just like our country, only your idiots have cool accents and probably score all the babes.

On the Brexit Deal or no Deal? Well, we have a tv show called Deal or No Deal. It's about winning money. The UK just needs to have a yard sale, save up some cash like a game show, and tell the EU to "stuff it with jellied eels".

a reply to: panoz77

So in the UK the ballot does not contain any further information.

Its simply leave the EU, Remain in the EU.

Now within that question as simply as it might seem is a lot (like #ing loads) of grey area that is a big part of the problem.

So whats on the ballot its a lot more complex than simply in or out, technically out could mean becoming part of the ECC for example but to some Brexit supporters that would be the worst outcome ever yet it would technically be adhering to the vote if you want to talk it that literally.

We voted to leave the European Union that was all could still be in the ECC, there are actually lots of different types of Brexit.

a reply to: mightmight

Dude I disagree and am leaving at that.

We are just so far apart I can't see anything meaningful coming out of further conversation.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: panoz77

So in the UK the ballot does not contain any further information.

Its simply leave the EU, Remain in the EU.

Now within that question as simply as it might seem is a lot (like #ing loads) of grey area that is a big part of the problem.

So whats on the ballot its a lot more complex than simply in or out, technically out could mean becoming part of the ECC for example but to some Brexit supporters that would be the worst outcome ever yet it would technically be adhering to the vote if you want to talk it that literally.

We voted to leave the European Union that was all could still be in the ECC, there are actually lots of different types of Brexit.

But all of them included us leaving the EU. That was the only guarantee, hence the only question on the ballot.

It's not rocket science.

originally posted by: Xabi87

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: panoz77

So in the UK the ballot does not contain any further information.

Its simply leave the EU, Remain in the EU.

Now within that question as simply as it might seem is a lot (like #ing loads) of grey area that is a big part of the problem.

So whats on the ballot its a lot more complex than simply in or out, technically out could mean becoming part of the ECC for example but to some Brexit supporters that would be the worst outcome ever yet it would technically be adhering to the vote if you want to talk it that literally.

We voted to leave the European Union that was all could still be in the ECC, there are actually lots of different types of Brexit.

But all of them included us leaving the EU. That was the only guarantee, hence the only question on the ballot.

Yup am not denying that...

whats your point other than agreeing with me?

My point is quite simply highlighting that a deal was promised.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Quite obviously there should be another vote and the elites need to figure out how to insure the right result is had.

Isn't Democracy just grand!

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Concerning legal challenges, absolutely..


Sop is to vote them out for being liars..

originally posted by: JustJohnny
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Concerning legal challenges, absolutely..


Sop is to vote them out for being liars..

I didn't vote for any of them anyway....

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: Xabi87

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: panoz77

So in the UK the ballot does not contain any further information.

Its simply leave the EU, Remain in the EU.

Now within that question as simply as it might seem is a lot (like #ing loads) of grey area that is a big part of the problem.

So whats on the ballot its a lot more complex than simply in or out, technically out could mean becoming part of the ECC for example but to some Brexit supporters that would be the worst outcome ever yet it would technically be adhering to the vote if you want to talk it that literally.

We voted to leave the European Union that was all could still be in the ECC, there are actually lots of different types of Brexit.

But all of them included us leaving the EU. That was the only guarantee, hence the only question on the ballot.

Yup am not denying that...

whats your point other than agreeing with me?

My point is quite simply highlighting that a deal was promised.

No, a deal was not promised. You can not promise something you can not give.

What are you smoking? How am i agreeing with you?

a reply to: Xabi87

No, a deal was not promised. You can not promise something you can not give.

Dude its all over their website, there promise was that they would get us a deal, they believed that they could deliver on this promise.

I agree with you that you can't really promise something that you might not be able to deliver, but politicians do that all the time.

You could argue that they over promised.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Xabi87

No, a deal was not promised. You can not promise something you can not give.

Dude its all over their website, there promise was that they would get us a deal, they believed that they could deliver on this promise.

I agree with you that you can't really promise something that you might not be able to deliver, but politicians do that all the time.

You could argue that they over promised.

"but politicians do that all the time" Exactly, just like o your website. So why are you so surprised? Did you believe them or something?

originally posted by: Xabi87

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: Xabi87

No, a deal was not promised. You can not promise something you can not give.

Dude its all over their website, there promise was that they would get us a deal, they believed that they could deliver on this promise.

I agree with you that you can't really promise something that you might not be able to deliver, but politicians do that all the time.

You could argue that they over promised.

"but politicians do that all the time" Exactly, just like o your website. So why are you so surprised? Did you believe them or something?

I am not surprised and I did not believe them.

My point here again is just to point out that this is what they said because very often some like to make the case that we were never promised a deal therefore no-deal is okay when actually yes they promised a deal. Now yeah they broke that promise, none of us should be surprised by that, like I said they were probably over promising.

originally posted by: Xabi87
No, a deal was not promised. You can not promise something you can not give.

Farage was the main driver behind Brexit and he repeatedly over and over again misled the innocent people with "the easiest deal in history" and "we hold all the cards" bollox. He was giving out fake news promises and we need a second referendum now and he needs barring from it for using con artist tacics indeed he should be banged up in prison as the bombs are starting going off again In Ireland as we speak.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

No no no , they said would negotiate " the terms " of a deal before leaving . Now you're saying they promised a deal - no they didn't .

Exactly what they said would happen , has happened . The 'terms' that Europe are offering are unacceptable , and there will no deal on those terms .

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

No one was in any position to promise anything and they shouldn't have, but the vote wasn't conditional on any deal.