Do men have any rights concerning abortion?

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Angelic1
We frequently read about pro-choicers and pro-lifers and what their take is on the issue of abortion. I am starting this thread not to start a debate on whether abortion should be leagl or not. BUT rather whether men should really be excluded from the choice of abortion.

Would it come down to forcing a woman to carry a baby full term on the father's request? How could this be imposed? Keep her in restraints for 9 months?
I agree the father should be consulted.. but ultimately it's her choice. As for people thinking the 'my body' argument is silly.. grow a uterus.
It would be a hell of a risk for a woman to put her body through that.. give birth and find the father that wanted the baby has disapeared though.
Likewise.. if a man wants his gf to terminate and she says no.. his problem. He should have protected himself if he didn't want to be in that situation.. saying 'but she said she was on the pill' after the fact is just pointless [same thing my cousin said- he's a daddy now.

]

actually riley even using protecton isn't enough. The supreme court recently ruled that a man "looses all rights to his sperm upon ejculaton" The case was a woman who had taken the condom and put it in her freezer for artficial insemination. Even though the man had taken every step possible not to impregnate her, and she had intentionally impregnated herself the court ruled he had to pay child support.

Men are not equal when t comes to anything regarding chldren. Women have all the rights men have none.

Originally posted by mwm1331
actually riley even using protecton isn't enough. The supreme court recently ruled that a man "looses all rights to his sperm upon ejculaton"

Well in most cases where it's an issue it's during sex.. he can't really 'retrieve' it.

The case was a woman who had taken the condom and put it in her freezer for artficial insemination. Even though the man had taken every step possible not to impregnate her, and she had intentionally impregnated herself the court ruled he had to pay child support.

She really should have been charged with some sort of violation other than theft.. it's not rape but it's still unethical. My question is did he ever have sex with her? Did taking 'every step to not impregenate her' actually include not having sex with her? If they did the deed and she went and stole the same condom out the bathroom bin [well how else would she know it was there?] ..in reality he was taking that risk anyway and he was already putting his hand in the lioness' cage [she consented to sex with intention of getting pregnant.. but the act of having sex is consenting to the risk of conception]. I guess it's a lesson to all men to dispose of condoms more efficiently.. and not to screw untrustworthy people.

Men are not equal when t comes to anything regarding chldren. Women have all the rights men have none.

I completely agree that they need more rights but it is changing.. though while it's still part of the mother's body her autonomy has to be protected.

[edit on 10-3-2005 by riley]

Come on women, its only nine months of your on average 79 years of life on this planet. Who's being selfish here! If a man is willing to raise the kid for life & be a father for the rest of his life, THEN I think it is a minor sacrifice for the women to have to carry the baby to term. Especially if he waives your responsibility after the kid is born.
I bought a huge 5 bedroom house in the nicest part of town, next to a park, filled it with new furniture, art, & top of the line appliances just to make sure my girlfriend has no excuses in raising my child. If her & I don't work out relationshipwise, the courts will give her everything even though I paid for it all. To top it off some new boyfriend will end up getting to spend more time with my kid and living in my house, sleeping in my bed while I will get kicked to the curb and have to go live in a cheap apartment.
Men are definately getting a raw deal at least in the western civilization.

equality hasn't been achieved.
not in the heart of society.
that much is obvious.
Fact....a child is concieved, and it really does deserve the chance to life the life it was given. And, well, I am not calling for an end to abortion but, well, in my view, the only ones who should reallly be getting them are those who genuinely feel that carrying the baby full term would really endanger there life or health.

fact......every child on this planet has a biological mother and a biological father, both equally responsible for bringing it into the world. I don't want to hear about how women trick men into being fathers, not unless you would like to hear how men rape women a month after they deliver their first baby!! that argument is over, as far as I am concerned.

but, I believe this is where we go wrong.
we tend to feel that the man should be out there supporting his wife, and the women should be home, raising the kids, taking care of the homefront. Doesn't this kind of put women in a big disadvantage when it comes to earnings potential. I'm not even going to say that I think it does....because I KNOW IT DOES!!!

so, since well, it is only logical from there to assume that the man should be free from the responsilities associated with the child care, and the women should be free from the financial burden of the kids. Which obviously doesn't work when the couple is not living in the same household. Not if both couples are to continue on with their lives.

But, what if we changed that idea about the roles of each player, made the man equally responsible for childcare, the women equally responsible for the finances. Then well, they can work with each other, live in the same area, arrange their jobs so that for most of the day, one is home with the kids.....while the other is working, and vice versa, or they can not, and then one with the main custody rights can arrange childcare (with a little extra for maid service), of which each will be responsible equally for. or if they are rich, and just don't want to deal with it, they can share the cost to sending them to a boarding school...
or if they aren't rich and just don't want to deal with it, they can place the child up for adoption.

Unfortunately, the family courts will consider the economics when making their decisions, is it really sane risking the income that the husband has by giving him custody of the children, and, well just how realistic is it to think that the women will be able to have the same earnings potential as the man, if she has been mainly just staying at home, and raising kids and cleaning the house?

Unfortunately, the are too many couples out there living with each other, who can't even afford to pay for the roof over the kid's heads and the food that is on their table.....so, well, don't know what to say about that one....but well, if you don't think that this plays into the abortion scene, I think you are nuts!!!

Do men have any rights concerning abortion?

Only if he's the father of the fetus in question, imho...
In such a case, if he wishes the baby to live, his voice should have just as much weight as the mother's, if he is willing to provide for the child.

Unless of course, there are other circumstances, such as rape, etc. NOTHING is ever black or white, always shades of gray and exceptions to the rule....

A couple of points here:
First. I don't have a view on abortion. I think that the abortion issue is a smokescreen being used by the government to avoid issues that they don't want to deal with. Anybody notice that when the media pays too much attention to the real workings going on someone makes a inflamitory statement about abortion and by the time the smoke clears from that the other issue is forgotten. Ever notice that the Congresscritter making the statement usually has a couple of years before they are up for re-election, so that everyone has forgotten by the time they are up for re-election. I find it ironic that the majority of the leaders of both the Pro Choice and Pro Life movements are men. I have to go along with the "its the woman's body" arguement for reasons that are readily apparent.

Second. I also agree that men's rights are ignored all of the time when it comes to children. I know of a situation in court right now where a woman committed fraud to be artificially insemanated with her ex-husband's sperm four years after their divorce was finalized. She then sued him for child support. So far the state has sided with her.

Third. Several courts have stated that child support is the "Right of the Child" and that there can be no agreements that bargain away that support. If you look on the internet you can find cases where a man has established by DNA that a child is not his and still has to pay support because he was named by the mother. I worked with a man that had the court award him full custody of his children and then had to basically kidnap them from his ex-wife because there was no way to force her to give them to him. I have also seen a father hauled off in handcuffs after having the door to his house knocked down by police because he and his son overslept and were late getting the boy back to his mother from court ordered visitation. I have seen both police officers and armed security guards lose their jobs because they can't carry a weapon because of being accused of groundless Domestic Violence charges.

The majority of this information can be validated by visiting the iFeminists.com website and read the articles by Wendy MacElroy.

Last. A contributing factor to alot of these issues is the lack of personal responsibility on the part of both women and men. As it has been pointed out it takes two. I believe that it is in each person's interest to cover their own ass!! Birth control is as much the mans responsibility as it is the womans. If you are not sure about her at least be sure about yourself. Better yet if you are not sure about her then don't!! I am not being a prude or a religious zelot. I like going out and playing too, but when I am done I know that I have nothing to worry about. I for one will be glad when they come out with a version of the Pill for men!!

Croat56, Kidfinger, and LadyV are here. Thanks

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God bless.

[edit on 10-3-2005 by saint4God]

reply to post by Angelic1


It's a gnarly issue, isn't it ?

A sane god would have enabled both male and female to become pregnant and carry a foetus to term

Anyone's free to guess how many babies would be born to men as opposed to women, huh ?


Years ago, when I was highly idealistic, I believed very strongly that men had equal rights in deciding whether or not to proceed with a pregnancy

With the passing years and observation, etc., I now feel differently

As Life stacked the decks differently against males AND females, re: this issue, it's now my belief that ultimately, the deciding vote must be the domain of the woman

Trying to make the best of a bad-bargain, I'm all for giving men 49% of the vote. That's not a bad deal in this most thorny of issues

With his 49%, the male can do all in his power to persuade the woman that he does want the child -- and his reasons. His 49% also allows him to be very persuasive in assuring the woman he will provide for and protect, support and sacrifice his life for -- the child, were it to be born.

But ultimately, it must be the woman's decision


A far BETTER solution, imo, would be for legislation to be passed requiring the male to contribute say 10% of his earnings towards his 'Baby Fund'. His own, personal baby fund. This would be deducted weekly and would be administered in the same way as superannuation by companies competing for their share of the market by offering bonuses, no-claim bonuses, higher rate of interest, etc. BUT all to be under a government protection umbrella so that NO scum criminals who cause a 'global financial collapse' would be able to TOUCH the baby-funds


Ok. So we have ALL the employed males contibuting to their own baby-funds, from the moment they begin earning a dollar

It would be up to each man to then decide WHICH of his potential children would beneficiaries of that money

See how it puts the onus on the male and provides him EQUAL say in the abortion issue ?

So then, when Jack has a one night stand with the pretty blonde in acounts --- and when she tells him a few weeks later that she's pregnant and is thinking of abortion ---- let's see what Jack says in response ?

WILL Jack want to commit to a child with her ? Or will Jack decide he's not ready for fatherhood and not with her ?

There will be no more wailing then about 'She had an abortion even though I didn't want her to '. Nope. Jack will be an equal decider

It will no longer be a case of opinionated strangers deciding women should devote their entire lives, energies, opportunities, etc. to having and raising Jack's child while Jack rides off into the sunset to make more babies

It will become a case of Jack having to part with his hard-saved baby-fund on behalf of that child. It will mean that before Jack's licence to breed is reinstated --- he must again amass another considerable lump-sum before he can impregnate anyone else

(I supect we'll see far less babies and far less unwed mothers and a return to chaste relationships. Condoms and other form of birth-control methods will soar. Welfare coffers might even get into the black)

God designed it so that it takes a man and a women to reproduce. His wish is that they stay together for life and raise their children as best as they can and with as much love as they can. Modern day society has forgotten this.

Enough of the "Women know better" or "Feminism" or "Men know better" etc, it's all self serving crap.

It is not a battle of the sexes. The purpose of it is that we both do it together and learn all about life along the way. Parenthood is a wonderfully hard challenge but also is one of the most rewarding.

Life is great. God is great.

I'm awash with analogies here...

"It's my body."
I provide 50% of the parts to build a car in your garage. You sell / junk the car before it's fully built. I wanted the car and you didn't. Where's my refund?

"It's my body, PT II."
I provide 50% of the parts to build a car in your garage. You wanted a car and I didn't. It's not fair when we both have 50% of the investment and you have 100% of 'title of ownership', and expect me to pay for the operating costs of the vehicle for nearly two decades.

"Men, you want to keep the baby, grow your own uterus."
I say "Women- you don't want the baby and the man does? Find a uterus to put it in."

A woman has the right to her body, but a foetus within is not HER body- it will belong to someone else, eventually.

Would you argue that:
Sheila special-orders a car from Ford with a promise to, and the full ability to pay.
Ford starts production of the vehcile.
Ford decides they don't want to built it because it's too much stress on the assembly line
Ford cancels the order.
Sheila has no recourse?

We could solve this whole argument rather easily:
Woman gets pregnant- father is consulted. Mother & father don't want kid, adopt or abort. Mother or father wants kid, no abort and kid goes to the one that wants. Mother and father wants kid, get married or litigate.

Yeah, it is that easy. Organisations like "PLANNED PARENTHOOD" are there for that.

[edit on 5/20/2010 by abecedarian]

no, unless they want to give birth to the baby themselves.

no pain, no choice.

women have to bear the pain and trauma of childbirth and it is their body, not the mans. therefore it is evident that women have been given the decision to let life into the world or not. it should be no one else's choice. since in this species, women are the ones biologically designed to birth and nurture the young. if we were talking seahorses it might be different.

they may state their opinion, but no one should be able to force a woman to give birth if she doesnt want to.

there is no 'right to life'. baby animals are killed by god every day; they drown in mud (baby elephants) or they get killed. god (or the ultimiate 'force') decides. and if the child doesn't make it into the world; clearly it has been decided this way.

it is a serious and traumatic decision for any women to make; and provided its early enough; then women who decide to make this decision should be supported as it is likely to cause them pain and trauma to have to go through this.

the child; well, the child is still developing at such an early stage; it will not be aware of what has occurred; that it lived or died. so it should not suffer.

im not saying i could make this decision for myself; but i would not try to prevent another woman from doing so. nor do i think it's a man's place to try to exert authority here. its woman's business, until the child is born.

and even then, as far as im concerned; women of this species are the ones that should be mainly raising young babies and children as they're adapted biologically to do so. men are not. in general.

reply to post by abecedarian


yeah, its easy for a man to say 'no abort'. no abort, means a WOMAN has to give birth to it. something men take pretty lightly since you dont see them screaming in severe pain and agony going through a birth process. if the foetus could be transferred to the man to give birth to it, i wouldnt have a problem.

they should keep their mouths SHUT and maintain a respectful silence.

or maybe they will come back as a woman to learn the hard way.


and by the way, if men had to give birth, they wouldnt do it and the species would come to a complete stop. men can't take that sort of pain, they have no conception of it.

[edit on 20-5-2010 by rapunzel222]

reply to post by riley


'men have all the rights and women have none' whinge whinge whinge. what planet are you on? have you any idea what has been going on in history or is going on around the world now, in most of ht planet???

clearly not, you are ignorant.

women have NO rights in most of the world and throughout history. women have been downtrodden by insensitive, sulking childish males that stalk this forum.

in most of the world, the women is forced into marriage under age with someone she detests and is forced to give birth to his kids and usually raped. thats what happens in MOST of hte world, to MANY MANY women. birth control and choice is not an option. her body is not hers, its his. her children are not hers, they are his. he can take them off her easily and kick her out. she is more like property.

thank god its not like this for women in the western world. and all the western men can do is sulk and complain now that finally women have some rights to their own body and offspring.

throughout HISTORY; women were also possessions of men; married (often forced) under age to older men; gave birth to huge numbers of kids due to no contraception and no doubt with no pain medication during birth; i dont even know how they did it. and the man could cheat on her; (or in some cultures take several wifes and get a young one when the others got too old) but woe betide her if she cheated on him. like guenevere, she could be burned at the stake and everyone would think the man had done the right thing.

god i am SICK of men WHINGING. SHUT THE HELL UP.

its about time women had some rights.

reply to post by rapunzel222


Calling me ignorant? Seriously..?

If you bothered to read my previous posts you would discover that not only am I a woman.. but I am also pro-choice.

bit trigger happy with your replies dear.

I'm only saying what's fair: as the foetus apparently has no rights, if women have the right to chose whether to keep, abort or adopt a child, men should have similar rights. Since males obviously can't bear the child, at least the concession should be made to them whether or not to be forced into child support payments.

A married couple with children later divorces, the parent without the children should contribute to them.

Two single people out a club, go back to the crib ( ) get it on and she get's pregnant, well... who's fault is that? The man for not sheathing his sword or the woman for not making him? Seeing women feel their body is their's to do as they feel fit, as they have all the rights to them, women should be guarding the castle. If she happens to get shafted in the process, she bears a lot of the blame. Seeing as how many women think men are pigs, women are already clued in to how the game works and if they can't cover their bases, that's not my fault.

[edit on 5/20/2010 by abecedarian]