I think universal healthcare is stupid

a reply to: andy06shake

Well I am happy to show them where the line is and they can go back across it no harm no foul, now they know.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: ScepticScot

My entire post was about cost and the person thinking $1300 a year is too much so we need universal healthcare because it's free. It's not. It's expensive. Someone spending $1300 a year now will pay MORE if universal healthcare is brought to America.

Democrats plan makes private insurance illegal, so you can NOT have private insurance if they institute their will.

Maybe you missed it, I am for universal healthcare done right. Democrats will destroy America with their plans.

What frustrates me about this conversation in regards to healthcare is that there are very simply things that could be done to significantly bring down costs without completely disrupting the industry.

Most of the issues with healthcare are a result of misguided regulations. Removing some of those regulations would help create a more competitive market place for health insurance.

First, health insurance should be completely decoupled from the employer. It should stay with the INDIVIDUAL. Any tax breaks should be applied to the individual, not the employer. This would allow people to be able to shop for their health insurance like they do any other insurance product. Employers would be free to make contributions to pay/subsidize the plan, but that plan is specific to the individual employee and can be transferred (without subsidy) even if they change jobs.

Second, a minimum federal coverage for catastrophic plans needs to be set that overrides any state mandates. In addition, these plans can be sold across state lines. What this does is break the monopoly / oligopolies some health insurance companies have in states. It also removes a lot of the bonehead state level provisions that prevent people from buying simpler health plans. For example, you don't need pregnancy coverage (too old, sterile, etc) but are forced to pay for it. Or rehab coverage. You just want a bare bones catastrophic plan that covers serious emergencies.

Third, there has to be a change in how the public views healthcare and insurance through education. Insurance is supposed to protect you against rare catastrophic events. Health insurance in the US right now is more like prepaid medical care, not insurance. We need to get away from this thinking that insurance is supposed to cover every single visit to a doctor for any little cough, sniffle, and few stitches.

If you want a physical, you should be able to go to a clinic and get an upfront cost of a physical and shop around. If you are too poor to afford a physical, there are plenty of free clinics that can step in.

We know a free market works with non-emergency healthcare and lowers costs because have plenty of case studies to observe. Plastic surgery, dental work, fertility treatments, and a lot of other medical services are relatively cheap because the end user is forced to shop around and insurance is not involved. This has helped lower prices to a more reasonable level.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

I imagine if the indigenous 50 million Americans had told our ancestors the same there might not be the dilemma you now face.

We are all "Jock Tamson's Bairns" at the end of the day.

And people do have the propensity to travel, especially when they want the same as we have.

Might be a Human race mate, but we are all running it.

a reply to: andy06shake

Looked at how that unfettered immigration worked for the Natives. Maybe there is a lesson there.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: ScepticScot

These people had no insurance. The 4 of them had an average cost of $5,000 each spread out over 3 years. They thought $1300/year each was crazy high.

A big reason why healthcare in the UK costs less is that you simply don't pay healthcare workers a fair wage. Go tell nurses in the US they are getting their pay cut to 30% what they make now.

My wife makes more as a nurse, working 3 days a week, no overtime, almost straight out of college, in an EXTREMELY low wage state, than most MD make in the UK. My wife makes about 50k pounds, my brother in law in Cali with 1 year experience makes 75k pounds (thats 60k USD and 90k USD).

We have a HUGE shortage or nurses even with that pay.

Not really comparing apples then are we.

4 people who have no cover and been lucky enough not to need much medical cover isn't really comparable to what what people pay for cover.

1 even relatively minor accident or medical condition and that cost to them skyrockets.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Don't trust white dudes that turn up wanting gold in boats loaded with cannon, muskets, nevermind biological weapons.

And for feck sake run the clappers as soon as they mention God perchance.

Now there would have been a lesson eh?

They learned that one the "hard" way.

a reply to: ScepticScot

My point is that they paid LESS with no insurance than they will under universal healthcare. They thought they paid a LOT and Universal would be free for them.

People simply don't understand what the costs are.

a reply to: andy06shake

So trust a black dude showing up like that?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: ScepticScot


My point is that they paid LESS with no insurance than they will under universal healthcare. They thought they paid a LOT and Universal would be
for them.

People simply don't understand what the costs are.

But it's not the same thing.

You are comparing what someone paid not being covered to what people pay to be covered.

They might have paid 1,300 next year they might pay 130,000.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Don't trust anyone who shows up like that i imagine no matter the colour shape or size. LoL

I raised the white issue because i think there God was assumed to be white and we did not exactly dispell the notion that we were God/Godlike, at least the Spanish did not.

Not so sure about the Vikings who came before them.

a reply to: UpIsNowDown
meanwhile in the UK the poor who can't afford healthcare but are over a certain age get put on hospice care, even with treatable issues.

yeah... seems fair.

When does end of life care begin? End of life care should begin when you need it and may last a few days, or for months or years. People in lots of different situations can benefit from end of life care. Some of them may be expected to die within the next few hours or days. Others receive end of life care over many months. People are considered to be approaching the end of life when they are likely to die within the next 12 months, although this isn't always possible to predict. This includes people whose death is imminent, as well as people who:

have an advanced incurable illness, such as cancer, dementia or motor neurone disease are generally frail and have co-existing conditions that mean they are expected to die within 12 months

have existing conditions if they are at risk of dying from a sudden crisis in their condition

have a life-threatening acute condition caused by a sudden catastrophic event, such as an accident or stroke

The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) has published guidance on the care of dying adults in the last days of life. This guidance covers how to manage common symptoms, as well as dignity and respect for the dying person, their relatives and carers.

www.nhs.uk...


Meanwhile, when the "affordable healthcare act" passed, I got kicked off of my $75 a month plan with a $50 deductible/copay and coverage up to $2million. I thought I could keep my plan if I liked it?

Well it turns out my plan didn't cover female reproductive health, and I was a single male at the time who was in very good condition. the plan that replaced it cost $175 a month! It had WORSE coverage, and had a $500 deductible/copay, while severely limiting my options for healthcare that I didn't even need. All to subsidize other people's insurance costs.

Now, in a situation a step further where universal healthcare is implemented the costs would go even further, but instead of having an option to take a tax hit (read a fine for not using a service) you get a mandatory fine in the form of tax, while also taking away the consumer's ability for collective bargaining.

It is a real riot if you ask me.

originally posted by: dubiousatworst
a reply to: UpIsNowDown
meanwhile in the UK the poor who can't afford healthcare but are over a certain age get put on hospice care, even with treatable issues.

yeah... seems fair.

No they don't. Where do you guys get this crap from?

originally posted by: dubiousatworst
a reply to: UpIsNowDown
meanwhile in the UK the poor who can't afford healthcare but are over a certain age get put on hospice care, even with treatable issues.

yeah... seems fair.

What the # are you talking about?

a reply to: BuckyWunderlick

More often than not universal healthcare is the stamp of a decadent society.

Quite the contrary, LesMis. It is the mark of a society that has risen to provide and ensure its populace is cared for.

I think universal healthcare is stupid

Yes, it's stupid to want people to have access to affordable care should they require it and to remain healthy without financially destroying their livelihoods.

Totally stupid.

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: BuckyWunderlick

More often than not universal healthcare is the stamp of a decadent society.

Quite the contrary, LesMis. It is the mark of a society that has risen to provide and ensure its populace is cared for.

Quite.

If making sure that everyone has access to medical care is decadent then sign me up for the decadence party.

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: BuckyWunderlick

More often than not universal healthcare is the stamp of a decadent society.

Quite the contrary, LesMis. It is the mark of a society that has risen to provide and ensure its populace is cared for.

How many have you cared for? You pay a tax. You neither provide or care for anyone. Instead you pretend.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: BuckyWunderlick

More often than not universal healthcare is the stamp of a decadent society.

Quite the contrary, LesMis. It is the mark of a society that has risen to provide and ensure its populace is cared for.

Quite.

If making sure that everyone has access to medical care is decadent then sign me up for the decadence party.

You pay a tax. Telling yourself you are “making sure that everyone has access to medical care” is false, because you have done none of that. You get some money taken off your pay check. That’s the very least you can do for others.

originally posted by: BuckyWunderlick

originally posted by: Liquesence
a reply to: BuckyWunderlick

More often than not universal healthcare is the stamp of a decadent society.

Quite the contrary, LesMis. It is the mark of a society that has risen to provide and ensure its populace is cared for.

How many have you cared for? You pay a tax. You neither provide or care for anyone. Instead you pretend.

I on the other hand do provide the care, what’s your point les?

originally posted by: rockintitz
I think universally, in America, healthcare is already a right.
You cannot stop me from paying for health insurance. Checkmate, bigot.
Stop making me pay for someone elses health insurance. I don't want to do that.

You believe having a right means being able to buy something? As in, a Space Shuttle is a right because everyone who can afford one can buy one? You think that is a right?

Major logic fail. It is moments like these and threads like these that make me wonder why I still even come back to ATS. This is not the quality we used to have. And this is sadly the norm currently.