I think universal healthcare is stupid

originally posted by: Bloodworth

originally posted by: UpIsNowDown
a reply to: rockintitz

Lol, so I am from the UK, and according to you I must be a bigot because I pay into a system which helps others who are less fortunate, if you are rich enough you can pay for private health care in the UK still ad still have access to the NHS, best of both bigoted worlds.

America where we watch our neighbours die with glee knowing it did not cost me a dime, its all about the money baby, screw society.

What happens when there are more less fortunate ones who will never contribute a penny then there are those that do pay?

The NHS is funded out of taxation just like the police or military.

Do you have the same concerns about them?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: Bloodworth

originally posted by: UpIsNowDown
a reply to: rockintitz

Lol, so I am from the UK, and according to you I must be a bigot because I pay into a system which helps others who are less fortunate, if you are rich enough you can pay for private health care in the UK still ad still have access to the NHS, best of both bigoted worlds.

America where we watch our neighbours die with glee knowing it did not cost me a dime, its all about the money baby, screw society.

What happens when there are more less fortunate ones who will never contribute a penny then there are those that do pay?

The NHS is funded out of taxation just like the police or military.

Do you have the same concerns about them?

Handing over money in exchange for a service is understandable.
But to hand over money to people who will never contribute one penny towards health care or give one care about their health is crazy.

Obamacare gave services to thousands of people who will never contribute a penny. That's and expensive move. so now everyone else will have to pay mas.

It's the way society is leaning these days.

Roads, bridges and infrastructure are not well maintained because there are more peoole who use them then contribute to taxes for their maintenance.

In ny about 6 kids in a classroom of 25 have parents who contribute to school tax, the rest are moochers.

Its putting a lot of areas in the red and the only solution is to take more from the ones giving.

Police and the pensions will be a slow killer.

1 cop retires at 55, pension is 100,000 a year for life.
Guy lives 25 years, that's 100,000 x 25 to pay just one cops retirement.
Say 100 cops retired this year, what is that?
100,000 x 25 x 200?

It's going to get real expensive fast,

originally posted by: rockintitz

Stop making me pay for someone elses health insurance. I don't want to do that.

Um.

Do you know how insurance works? Even private insurance?

You know, aggregation of risk, actuarial tables, that kind of stuff.

The moment you buy insurance, you are already paying for someone else.

It's how insurance works. Even private insurance.

a reply to: rockintitz

This is rather interesting.

a reply to: rockintitz

Free health-care is logical.
Unless there are underlying population control agenda to prevent a population from growing I cannot understand the problem with free global healthcare and education systems to educate the global population and make the global population healthier.

a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

As someone who has only known tax funded healthcare, the logic of it seems obvious to me, never mind the altruistic nature of everyone being healed to an amazing basic service of this century. Okay, I may get some crazy expensive experimental treatment in the US which ain't funded here, but let's be honest, I probably wouldn't have access to it if I was American because my cheap skid row insurance policy wouldn't cover it anyway 😂

I've always promised a loved US friend and she gets cancer but doesn't want to be bankrupted by it, I'll marry her in a heartbeat just to get it done on our tax dime.
I've paid over a quarter million income tax in my working life, never mind the taxes on everything I buy or sell/give to others.
Yep, I've paid into that pot Bigly as his Trumpness would say, anyone in my tribe can access that pot as well if I have any options to make it happen 👍

originally posted by: looneylupinsrevenge

originally posted by: BuckyWunderlick

originally posted by: rockintitz
I think universally, in America, healthcare is already a right.
You cannot stop me from paying for health insurance. Checkmate, bigot.
Stop making me pay for someone elses health insurance. I don't want to do that.

If they didn’t have universal healthcare it would mean that (gasp) they’d have to care for each other. More often than not universal healthcare is the stamp of a decadent society.

Can you explain this a bit more? Why would it be considered a "stamp of a decadent society"? Also how does funding a public health system, setup to help those less fortunate afford medical procedures they wouldnt normally be able to afford, not caring about other? Furthermore how is that the current American healthcare system shows care and concern for other?

If you further elaborate, it would be very helpful in understanding your reasoning some.

Paying a tax isn’t a form of caring and shouldn’t be confused as such. In fact it’s the very least one can do for others. If anything it’s the opposite of caring, ie not caring. Showing kindness and concern for others involves a great deal more.

The delegation of caring for others to a government is an example of moral decline, and therefor decadence.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

It's not so much a question of the government being inept, but the government being crooked. Medicare for all is not the answer at this point. As an American, I'd like for our government to actually enforce existing anti-trust law, break up monopolies, allow a true free market in the healthcare sector and see what happens. Prices should crash to a point where most people can pay for medical expenses out of pocket with insurance (at a fraction of its current cost) to pay for catastrophic situations - you know, like insurance is actually designed to do (not to pay for getting a prescription for the sniffles). I'd still be in favor of some sort of Medicare plan for the poorest of the poor, but the cost of that would be a tiny fraction of our current Medicare cost as we would now be paying for healthcare at competitive pricing instead of monopolistic pricing. On two separate occasions the healthcare industry went to the supreme court arguing that anti-trust law does not apply to them. Both times they lost. Yet, we still don't have one government official that will enforce the law, even though they have all sworn an oath to do so. If you don't address WHY healthcare is so expensive, we will still be going down a financially destructive path, regardless of WHO is paying for it.

It would cause a huge economical crash in doing this though as the healthcare industry is about 20% of the economy and we'd bring it back down to it's historical 3-4% level....but within a short time span, that money that was being "stolen" through the healthcare scam would get redirected into more productive and legitimate areas of business within the economy and it would come roaring back. Hospital administrators and paper pushers would lose out as those that are getting paid to not perform any amount of care or necessary work would lose their jobs. We aren't all going to be winners, but with the economic boom that would follow, there would be plenty of opportunities in other industries.

But, why do this when we think we can continue to kick the can down the road, scam the American people out of trillions per year in the mean time and then eventually finish it off with a nice economic collapse - the math doesn't lie about that. The only question is when.

originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese

originally posted by: rockintitz

Stop making me pay for someone elses health insurance. I don't want to do that.

Um.

Do you know how insurance works? Even private insurance?

You know, aggregation of risk, actuarial tables, that kind of stuff.

The moment you buy insurance, you are already paying for someone else.

It's how insurance works. Even private insurance.

Do you know how Obamacare works? It’s govt subsidized for poorer people and who pays for that ?

originally posted by: ThirdEyeofHorus

originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese

originally posted by: rockintitz

Stop making me pay for someone elses health insurance. I don't want to do that.

Um.

Do you know how insurance works? Even private insurance?

You know, aggregation of risk, actuarial tables, that kind of stuff.

The moment you buy insurance, you are already paying for someone else.

It's how insurance works. Even private insurance.

Do you know how Obamacare works? It’s govt subsidized for poorer people and who pays for that ?

Yes the government pays, once the government takes your tax money it's their money not yours.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

I've always been happy enough with the crumbs and bones they throw down to us as well, the level of service I've had in my life has been well worth all the taxes I've paid, to me, and most folk I know.
I'm currently not a taxpayer due to damaged legs, looking forward to finding an earner ASAP that fits with my new reality, but of a challenge but a new exciting one. First penny of income tax I pay next will be sweet as! 😁😎

I'm a centrist right wing communist with a libertarian after taste, and even that is a stretch for a descriptive term for me 😂

a reply to: Silure

Health services in this country are great, all innovation comes through the public sector.

Sorry to hear of your troubles and I hope you transition back to work comfortably and successfully.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Cheers mate 👍
Good mate runs a business employs loads of folk as temps doing stuff I can't do otherwise I'd get work off him tomorrow lol.
He is just a bloke and his biz partner in one office running it. He's a lazy bastard if he can be, rather be doing more free time than earning if he can, so he's up for teaching me his gig, and me covering 3/4 hours a day so he can skive off while I answer calls and make excuses for him or whatever lol.

Life always has new opportunities however the undergrowth changes as we hack our path out!
Sorry off topic, so on topic, born somewhere with tax funded healthcare like i've only ever known? # yeah! ☺️

Edit, I love your name by the way, similar to my headspace, I always turn fear to excitement 👍

a reply to: Silure

Sounds like you're onto a good thing, I'm in a similar situation I've developed chronic back issues and get these blowouts that just ruin me, I'm going through a whole career change, but like you I'm a survivor and will adapt accordingly, which is only possible thanks to our socialized medical system.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Survivors yes! Self believers, independent souls able to earn our own money because the system will fix us for 90 odd percent of ailments which stop us earning, for free, letting us get back to earning money and paying taxes.
It's a no brainer totally for me if I was PM tomorrow lol



Edit, my tribe fixes our people no matter the treasure they may own. That works for me so I'd never vote to change it as my base line of tribe.

originally posted by: UpIsNowDown
a reply to: rockintitz

Lol, so I am from the UK, and according to you I must be a bigot because I pay into a system which helps others who are less fortunate, if you are rich enough you can pay for private health care in the UK still ad still have access to the NHS, best of both bigoted worlds.

America where we watch our neighbours die with glee knowing it did not cost me a dime, its all about the money baby, screw society.

Why must the U.S. "become Britain"? Last I checked we fought in a war to declare independence from your monarchy, your laws and rules... The U.S. was never founded to become a cookie-cutter imitation of Britain, or any other country. Not to mention the fact that people form all over the world, INCLUDING BRITAIN, come to the U.S. or go to other countries because your NHS does not allow certain procedures and treatments to be used to try to save people's lives, or/and your wait times are too looooong and people in Britain decide to go elsewhere, including the U.S. for their medical treatments...

Your system is so wonderful that many of your own people come to the U.S., and other countries, to get treated here and elsewhere instead of being treated in Britain...

...
he number of patients leaving Britain and flying overseas for medical treatment has trebled as NHS waiting times reach a record high, a Telegraph investigation has revealed.

Government data shows the number of people going abroad for healthcare has increased from 48,000 in 2014 to almost 144,000 last year as the health service struggles to cope with demand.

Experts said lengthening waiting times for surgery - particularly hip, knee and cataract operations - and cutbacks to fertility treatment - were fuelling the rise.

NHS waiting times are now the longest they have been for almost a decade, with more than 409,000 people waiting more than 18 weeks for treatment - a rise from 34,000 in 2014.
...

Soaring numbers flying abroad for medical care as NHS lists lengthen

Even from our closest neighbors, Canadians, at least some tend to come to the U.S. to seek medical treatment that their NHS system doesn't allow, or because their wait times are too long with people dying because of the "wait time."

Crossing the Border for Care Frustrated by long waits, some Canadians are heading to the U.S. for medical treatment.

63,000 Canadians left the country for medical treatment last year: Fraser Institute

Canadian Wait Times: While Politicians Dither, Patients Die

The Effect of Wait Times on Mortality in Canada

Canadian Politician Comes to U.S. for Heart Surgery
The top politician in Canada's easternmost province has set off fireworks by deciding to go to the U.S. for heart surgery.

originally posted by: BuckyWunderlick

originally posted by: looneylupinsrevenge

originally posted by: BuckyWunderlick

originally posted by: rockintitz
I think universally, in America, healthcare is already a right.
You cannot stop me from paying for health insurance. Checkmate, bigot.
Stop making me pay for someone elses health insurance. I don't want to do that.

If they didn’t have universal healthcare it would mean that (gasp) they’d have to care for each other. More often than not universal healthcare is the stamp of a decadent society.

Can you explain this a bit more? Why would it be considered a "stamp of a decadent society"? Also how does funding a public health system, setup to help those less fortunate afford medical procedures they wouldnt normally be able to afford, not caring about other? Furthermore how is that the current American healthcare system shows care and concern for other?

If you further elaborate, it would be very helpful in understanding your reasoning some.

Paying a tax isn’t a form of caring and shouldn’t be confused as such. In fact it’s the very least one can do for others. If anything it’s the opposite of caring, ie not caring. Showing kindness and concern for others involves a great deal more.

The delegation of caring for others to a government is an example of moral decline, and therefor decadence.

Hmm fair point I guess though I truly dont see it that way. Though that likely has more to do with me being born into this system rather than the American one. Yes it's a tax, in the same vein as old age pension (social security) is. A tax intended and applied to the common good. It saves families from bankruptcy, just because a family member got sick or injured. It saves people's lives who, perhaps, through no fault of their own, cant afford procedures they desperately need. It saves people thousands of dollars a year on prescription drugs and treatments.

It's a tax... that's true, one we certainly don't mind paying.

The single payer/for profit healthcare industry, like the US, certainly don't work for the common good. And you say that a public healthcare system, like canada, doesn't work for the common good either. So I guess what I'm really asking is, what do you suggest as the answer? And the following that how do you suggest it be implemented if not through taxation? Keeping in mind that Doctors still need to get paid, as do all hospital staff, utilities, and sundries of other expenses (stocking of supplies/new equipment/etc.). That money has to come from somewhere. Either taxation or personal responsibility... unless you know of a third option I'm forgetting.

originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: rockintitz
I think universally, in America, healthcare is already a right.
You cannot stop me from paying for health insurance. Checkmate, bigot.
Stop making me pay for someone elses health insurance. I don't want to do that.

Well, you know it's not that simple though. Insurance is the main reason healthcare is so expensive.

The reason it is expensive is because it is illegal to give someone "inferior care", even if they want it. (Or want to pay less by accepting it.)


When people talk about "generic" drugs, they mean formulas for which the patent has expired. Say a penicillin formula from 1985. It will totally do the job, but the latest, most recently tweaked version can be argued to be just barely.... slightly,.... maybe... better. So even if the patent holder wants to charge 50 to 100 times as much as the 1985 version would have cost, you have to pay it.

To do otherwise would be to offer "inferior care".

I think doctors and hospitals should eat the cost of the uninsured or get out of the "healthcare" business. If you're going to charge someone tens of thousands of dollars to save their life, you're just another greedy POS leech posing as some kind of humanitarian hero.

It's a glorified protection racket.

If that were the requirement, then nobody would ever enter the healthcare business. It's not even possible for them to operate that way.

You're asking them to operate perpetually at a net loss. Where will they get more money to stay open after they're bankrupt?

Just keep borrowing?


From what lender?

a reply to: andy06shake
Occasional tachycardia, couldn't get a pacemaker through the NHS.

EDIT for clarification:

There was a shortage of heart specialists in the NHS system when he needed it, and due to being older and nearer to the end of his life, he was put at low priority, and he died waiting for it.

a reply to: Edumakated

I agree with a lot of what you said. However, free market doesn't work with respect to emergencies. Also, decoupling healthcare from employment only works if pre-existing conditions are covered. Costs can be brought down by 20% by simply forcing tax exempt hospitals to charge a mark-up that does not exceed a profit =5%. Building costs should be contained as well. If drug costs are then matched against what the drug companies charge the rest of the world, i.e. prices are limited to 150% of the average selling price outside the U.S., the U.S. will finally stop subsidizing the rest of the world. Finally, balanced billing and surprise billing need to be outlawed for insured patients. If those steps alone were implemented, healthcare costs would probably decrease by 33% in this country. Most of these are consistent with your comments. It is just filling in some additional details.