Our economy stinks

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: tanstaafl

That would never get you elected,

Oh, I have no doubt that this is true.

because that would flood our markets with foreign goods from countries where labor and products are cheaper.

How do you figure that? Because in reality, the exact opposite is true.

Now, I have no problem with free trade... competition is what markets thrive on. But, we have a lot of people in the US that are starting to realize that the point of competition is to create losers, not winners...

No, the point of competition is to provide the best products/services at the best price.

and that American Exceptionalism is a myth, so they're starting to lose... a lot. Meaning they simply want to bar others from our markets hoping they can compete among other nonncompetitive people.

Your words are not exuding a rational chain of thought.

In other words, you are not making sense.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: tanstaafl

Working multiple jobs does not get you through university.

I'll be sure to tell my nephew, and the thousands of others who do just this every year. In other words - your words are meaningless.

I did state that my nephew lived at home most of the time, so had no major living expenses (and I never said he had zero help, I said he didn't get any loans).

ETA:

I'll reiterate, in my opinion, college isn't for everyone, and in fact, I'd say less than 50% of the kids who go should.

Tradeschools are a huge opportunity many kids never even consider because public fools brainwash them into believeing their only choice is a college degree.

There are also other options for disadvantaged kids - military service will generally get you a free college degree (if that is what you really want), or you can learn a very useful trade, but you have to negotiate that up front. When I went into the Coast Guard, before I signed the papers, I got, in writing, guaranteed electronics school training, which ended up being the foundation for my I.T. career these last 35+ years.

a reply to: tanstaafl

No, competition provides the most competitive product. 50% of the quality at 25% of the price is much more competitive generally

a reply to: KnoxMSP

By leaving and working a trade you will never get better for your children. The path to that is to become the CEO of that company and change things.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Aazadan

Agreed, average is a terrible thing really.

Average would be fine if the measurements were instead reflecting purchasing power and then further adjusted to reflect local costs of living.

But, they aren’t.

a reply to: tanstaafl

There is no risk in the market currently. For the non sophisticated investor who is interested in long term results the markets are a solved system. This by definition cannot last, bit for now dollar cost averaging into low cost index funds is a damn near guaranteed return at the market average.

a reply to: tanstaafl

So significant family help... but I’m sure it’s all due to him being a hard worker.

That’s the thing, no one succeeds without hard work but having other socioeconomic advantages makes it much more likely that hard work will get you success. It’s the whole he didn’t build that thing. Sure, he’s studying hard in university but there are so many other factors at play there that he is benefiting from that you can hardly say he did it through his own effort.

The other issue is that you cannot change the system unless you can get into a position that gives you the power to change it. People who go to trade school will never get into that position. As such you are encouraging them to give up on ever being able to have a say in building the society they want.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: tanstaafl

No, competition provides the most competitive product. 50% of the quality at 25% of the price is much more competitive generally

Pretty much what I said, except the ridiculous made up percentages...

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: tanstaafl

There is no risk in the market currently.

Whatever... moron...

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: tanstaafl

So significant family help... but I’m sure it’s all due to him being a hard worker.

He worked multiple jobs and paid for his school.

So, yeah... he is a real hard worker.

That’s the thing, no one succeeds without hard work but having other socioeconomic advantages makes it much more likely that hard work will get you success.

Makes it easier, yes, but if one is willing to work for it, they can achieve it, that is the great thing about America.

The same simply isn't true in other countries, especially the socialist/communist ones.

It’s the whole he didn’t build that thing. Sure, he’s studying hard in university but there are so many other factors at play there that he is benefiting from that you can hardly say he did it through his own effort.

He did it through his own effort. It was easier because he had help, but he'd have done it all by himself if he had to.

The other issue is that you cannot change the system unless you can get into a position that gives you the power to change it. People who go to trade school will never get into that position. As such you are encouraging them to give up on ever being able to have a say in building the society they want.

He doesn't want to change the system, he likes the (merit based) system like it is.

It is people like Obama and Bernie and AOC and others of that ilk who want to 'transform' America - and they need to be driven out and back to the crap holes they came from.

a reply to: tanstaafl

There isn’t, some stocks go up and some go down but proper risk management ensures that you cannot lose money in the long term. Index funds basically beat the system for ordinary people. This will not last, it cannot last, but that’s how it is for the moment.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: KnoxMSP

By leaving and working a trade you will never get better for your children. The path to that is to become the CEO of that company and change things.

Uhm, I own my own business now, and work for myself.

Also, everyone cant be the CEO. That is no reason to not want proper compensation for your work/sales/company profit produced.

a reply to: tanstaafl

The merit of being handed advantages from your parents. If you truly believe in merit then you must also be against inheritance, assistance from those you know, and family connections. Otherwise you’re a hypocrite.

The world is not merit based. I believe it should be, but it is not and it is not even close.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Haha! Merit based system! Right. And that’s the problem right there. We don’t have a merit based system. People are not compensated based upon how productive they are, and THAT is what a merit based system is meant to do. There’s no merit in nepotism, in backroom deals, in crony capitalism, in exploitive financialized economy. And that’s what we have. If it were truly merit based then all the bankers would have lost their jobs..... on their way to jail. But I imagine you need this myth of merit based so you can get some sense of worth from your personal position, and feel the comfort of looking down upon all those who make less than you, as they all must apparently not work as hard as you. What bs.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: tanstaafl

The merit of being handed advantages from your parents.

No, that is just good fortune (some call it luck).

If you truly believe in merit then you must also be against inheritance,

No, because I'm also a firm believer in private property rights.

assistance from those you know, and family connections.

and charity/good fortune.

Otherwise you’re a hypocrite.

Nope, I'm a realist.

The world is not merit based. I believe it should be, but it is not and it is not even close.

Yes, it mostly is, even now, because if you want something, and work hard enough to achieve it, you likely can.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: tanstaafl

Haha! Merit based system! Right. And that’s the problem right there. We don’t have a merit based system. People are not compensated based upon how productive they are, and THAT is what a merit based system is meant to do.

I didn't claim we have a merit based employment system. I claimed we have a (mostly) merit based economic system, and I stand by that claim.

Again - no matter who you are, if you really want something, and are willing to work your ass off to get it, and work smartly, odds are you will achieve it.

Of course, if your goal is to become an astronaut, and you work your ass off digging ditches, then you'r not working smart, and no matter how hard you work, you will never achieve your dream.

There’s no merit in nepotism, in backroom deals, in crony capitalism, in exploitive financialized economy.

what you fail to perceive is that not all successful people achieve their success as a result of any of those.

And that’s what we have. If it were truly merit based then all the bankers would have lost their jobs.

Don't confuse merit based with justice based.

What you are talking about there is Justice. But I do believe that the truly exploitative will get their just reward, one day, one way or another.

But I imagine you need this myth of merit based so you can get some sense of worth from your personal position, and feel the comfort of looking down upon all those who make less than you, as they all must apparently not work as hard as you. What bs.

The BS is this insane envy and jealousy you seem to have for people who have achieved their goals and dreams in life.

No, life is not fair. But it is what you make it.

You just cant argue with people who got where they are today with more usd buying power. They refuse to acknowledge that a more valuable dollar, and not "their hard work" got them an advantage. Young people today start on a lower rung than their parents and grandparents did, then these same parents and grandparents, with their head start and advantage of a more powerful dollar, percieve the younger genwrerations failure to achieve what they could with their more powerful dollar, as not working as hard. That is simply not true.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: tanstaafl

Haha! Merit based system! Right. And that’s the problem right there. We don’t have a merit based system. People are not compensated based upon how productive they are, and THAT is what a merit based system is meant to do.

I didn't claim we have a merit based employment system. I claimed we have a (mostly) merit based economic system, and I stand by that claim.

Again - no matter who you are, if you really want something, and are willing to work your ass off to get it, and work smartly, odds are you will achieve it.

Of course, if your goal is to become an astronaut, and you work your ass off digging ditches, then you'r not working smart, and no matter how hard you work, you will never achieve your dream.

There’s no merit in nepotism, in backroom deals, in crony capitalism, in exploitive financialized economy.

what you fail to perceive is that not all successful people achieve their success as a result of any of those.

And that’s what we have. If it were truly merit based then all the bankers would have lost their jobs.

Don't confuse merit based with justice based.

What you are talking about there is Justice. But I do believe that the truly exploitative will get their just reward, one day, one way or another.

But I imagine you need this myth of merit based so you can get some sense of worth from your personal position, and feel the comfort of looking down upon all those who make less than you, as they all must apparently not work as hard as you. What bs.

The BS is this insane envy and jealousy you seem to have for people who have achieved their goals and dreams in life.

No, life is not fair. But it is what you make it.

?? How can we have a merit based economic system without merit based employment? That is a stark contradiction.
At any rate, it depends what you mean by success. Many of our most successful earned it during the days of robber barons and in war. Like the rothschilds, Rockefeller’s, bayer, bmw, etc. So no, people can work hard and smart, and will most likely never become a powerful magnate with the power to purchase legislation.

As for jealousy, so misguided, and a go to response whenever discussing iniquity in the system. I’m successful and honestly have more money and material than I ever thought I would. But let’s be clear, for the vast majority of our nation the goal of success is pretty modest. Over 50% of Americans want nothing more extreme than to be able to pay their bills and provide a home, food and security for their family. And they work hard. And they can’t achieve even that. That’s not, as you state, a sign of a lazy society. It’s a sign of a failed system. And just because I had the fortune and grace to succeed, that doesn’t give me the illusion that those who didn’t are lazy or stupid. Yes, we don’t have slavery anymore. But that doesn’t mean that our system is free from manipulation or constructs and systems of iniquity. I guarantee you that there are ridiculous amounts of people out there working far harder than me and making way less money. But, no. As you say, all those people presenting their grievances, and the numerous studies showing the decline in living standards and purchasing power, and even life expectancy, for the majority of Americans, must all just be a big lie to cover up laziness.

originally posted by: KnoxMSP
Also, everyone cant be the CEO. That is no reason to not want proper compensation for your work/sales/company profit produced.

You're right, they can't. There are only 500 CEO's in Fortune 500 companies, out of about 26 million employees. But, if you are not one of those 500, or someone else hugely influential, you will not make a difference.

If you just want to live your life and not make the world better... fine, go do that. But don't stand in the way of people who want to actually make a difference. And don't encourage people to take paths in life that lead to roads where they can't make a difference.

No tradesman will solve climate change, or be the one responsible for us colonizing space, or create a new form of clean power. They may work for people who will do that, but they will always be an inferior human to those who do come up with the ways to make a difference.

a reply to: tanstaafl

If you believe in inheritances, then you also believe that people should succeed based on being given something rather than on their own merits. Merit means being self made, through nothing other than your own drive and talents. Not being handed advantages through political, social, or financial luck. If you get those things in life, you didn't earn them. Therefore you cannot have succeeded entirely through merit.