Our economy stinks

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
" "Most people have to do it with student loans." "
"Because they aren't willing to work 2 or 3 part time jobs."

Many need to actually have time to study.

My nephew had time to study - he just didn't have time for partying or anything else that occupies 95+% of the average college students time/mind.

originally posted by: jacobe001
My dad worked at a restaurant in the 70's as a teen and was able to buy a new car and put himself through college.
You will not be able to do that today.

The car would be easy (as long as you're willing to settle for a 5 yr old decent ride, and don't insist on driving a new fancy car).

As for College... if you were willing to settle for the small local Community type colleges, and didn't insist on trying to get into the expensive ones, you'd also probably be able to swing it - but yeah, college tuition has gone up so much, precisely because of government intrusion into the market. Get the government out of the market, and watch tuitions fall back to somewhere in the normal/affordable range.

originally posted by: jacobe001
Labor is always cheaper under Communist systems since workers do not have any rights.

Bingo. And it isn't just labor. Environmental laws and stifling regulations in the US also are a factor - they don't have those problems in these foreign countries.

Our foreign policy with respect to trade should be very simple.

If I were running things, every single country would be subjected to the exact same Trade Policy:

US Reciprocal Foreign Trade Policy

1. It is hereby declared that the United States has only one Foreign Trade Policy, and it is henceforth known as 'The Reciprocal Foreign Trade Policy".

2. 'Reciprocal Foreign Trade Policy' means that, with respect to our official Trade Policy, the United States will treat any and all foreign governments in the same that they treat us.

2a. If they do not implement and tariffs on any goods of ours that are imported into their country, we will not implement any tariffs on any of their goods imported into our country from theirs.

2b. If any foreign Country imposes any trade tariff(s) on any goods or services from The United States, the President of the United States is authorized to, via Executive Order, impose tariffs on either the same/similar goods/services that said Country imposed tariffs on, or a blanket tariff on all goods/services from said Country, whichever is deemed more appropriate.

3. All Entities, whether Private, Government or some mixture, that import any Product or Service into the United States from any foreign Country, are hereby required to follow all of the same United States Laws that domestic Entities must follow, including but not limited to Employment and Environmental regulations, regardless of the laws of said foreign Country.

4. The 'Reciprocal Foreign Trade Policy' is separate and apart from our system of Trade Sanctions that are imposed for other reasons.

Redneck, you obviously have no clue how the poor really live.

originally posted by: pexx421
Sure. Let me help you out. Capital gains are exploitive because any time you are making money without working for it, you are taking it away from those who do work for it. That’s the free lunch.

Sorry, don't need your kind of 'help'...

First - while the person enjoying the gains on their property that they have decided to risk in the markets or some other fashion may not directly labor for those returns, it is a total non-sequitur to claim that these gains are somehow 'taken away' from other people who do exchange their labor for compensation.

The one has absolutely nothing to do with the other, and to claim that it does - well, it exhibits a gross incompetence when it comes to having a grasp on economics, or how markets work.

Otherwise - by all means, explain how one persons capital gain equates to someone else's 'loss'.

It makes far more sense for people to be taxed on money that they don’t work for rather than money they have to create with labor.

It only makes sense to people whose goal is to promote jealousy and class envy, rather than promoting self-help and 'how to succeed in a capitalist society'.

The market is not some magical, self regulating thing as libertarians seem to think.

Never said it was, and I agree there needs to be some minimal but substantive controls on the markets, but only in the furtherance of protecting people from theft and fraud.

They manipulate labor with outsourcing, and force labor to compete with third world countries,

I agree 100% - see my recent post in this thread as to how to deal with this problem effectively.

and they manipulate legislation so they don’t have to pay their share of taxes,

This is a purely bogus argument intended to push people's 'greed/envy' buttons.

Corporations/businesses don't pay taxes. People do. No matter how you try to hide this reality, it is reality. A tax - any tax - is just a cost of doing business that gets passed to the consumer in one way or another.

or their products become mandated,

Monopolies created by legislative fiat should be broken up, and there should be a Constitutional Amendment implemented to prevent corporations from being treated as 'persons' within the meaning of our Constitutions (both Federal and State) and legislation, and from having anywhere near the same Rights as people do.

A natural monopoly, if it ever were to exist, would be ok with me, as long as there were no unnatural barriers to any potential competitors, and said monopoly didn't take illegal/fraudulent action to harm a potential competitor (this would include extreme price gouging, ie, selling at a loss for an extended period of time just to put a competitor out of business because the monopoly has enough cash on hand to absorb the losses for a long enough time to extinguish the competition.

Of course, a law covering this would be interesting in its creation and implementation.

or they take taxpayer money in no bid contracts,

Government should never, ever, under any circumstances, provide any private or non-private entity with money for commercial or related purposes.

No more grants to colleges for 'research' purposes. No more grants to study this disease or that new technology.

None. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

or they limit harvest or production to create false scarcity, or they start a war to get arms, munitions, and rebuilding contracts, or they make propaganda to manipulate the public to keep mj illegal so they get more prisoner money.....

Same... no more interventionist practices by our governments (federal and state).

Really the ways that those with money control the market keeps going on and on and the fact you don’t recognize it

Objection: assumes facts not in evidence.

Sorry, but I have never said that I don't believe that governments and large corporate interests don't manipulate the markets - but I would argue that they do not control them, in a direct and granular fashion.

FYI, the “free market” was originally a socialist idea, and it meant a market free from rent, monopolies, and exploitation.

Prove it. I highly doubt you are correct, but I'm always open to learning something new.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
" "Most people have to do it with student loans." "
"Because they aren't willing to work 2 or 3 part time jobs."

Many need to actually have time to study.

My nephew had time to study - he just didn't have time for partying or anything else that occupies 95+% of the average college students time/mind.

Wow I think your nephew was a young man worthy of worship, he sounds devine! Holy even can do no wrong perfecto! Congratulations on having such a person in your Family line!

a reply to: Edumakated

In fact, a person making about $30,000 in the US would be part of the Top 1% globally. Let that sink in. Someone making about $15/hr, essentially minimum wage in the US, would be considered part of the top 1% GLOBALLY.

oh they won't address those statistics
they get all in their way

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
"My nephew had time to study - he just didn't have time for partying or anything else that occupies 95+% of the average college students time/mind."

Wow I think your nephew was a young man worthy of worship, he sounds devine! Holy even can do no wrong perfecto! Congratulations on having such a person in your Family line!

Said the lazy ass who is only interested in making excuses for laziness and/or incompetence.

a reply to: Aazadan

I won't call it fake news. I'll call it a different reading of the numbers. It's the three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. I think the census data is probably the most reliable as it gives us the raw data, whereas the BEA number and the BLS just give us the headline rates.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
"My nephew had time to study - he just didn't have time for partying or anything else that occupies 95+% of the average college students time/mind."

Wow I think your nephew was a young man worthy of worship, he sounds devine! Holy even can do no wrong perfecto! Congratulations on having such a person in your Family line!

Said the lazy ass who is only interested in making excuses for laziness and/or incompetence.

Yes! No quarter for kids who are not on the cutting edge and may have to actually work just to get through school with all they have. YES everyone has equal smarts the rest are just lazy and pretend to be stupid!

Three jobs, no loans, no help from Mom and Dad! And energy to boot even when still growing at age 18!
Glad you see fit to kick the normal kid into the realm of lazy stupid worthless!

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
Yes! No quarter for kids who are not on the cutting edge and may have to actually work just to get through school with all they have. YES everyone has equal smarts the rest are just lazy and pretend to be stupid!

Not at all what I said, and you know it, but this only proves you don't really care about the subject, you only care about appearances - in this case, the appearance that you care about the poor underprivileged kids.

Three jobs,

I said 2 or 3... sometimes it was even 1... it depended on his schedule, and what jobs were available at what compensation level... and he also worked weekends.

no loans,

Correct...

no help from Mom and Dad!

I didn't say he didn't get any help from them, all I know is he worked his ass off.

And energy to boot even when still growing at age 18!

Well... yeah, I recall all-nighters didn't affect me much, and I could get by on very little sleep for long periods of time... not the same no, thats for certain.

glad you see fit to kick the normal kid into the realm of lazy stupid worthless!

If they are unwilling to work 1, 2 or so jobs, go to the less expensive schools so they can live at home while going to school, drive a clunker they can actually afford - then yeah, I declare they are lazy and/or unwilling to do what it takes.

But this does also bring up another very important point.

Not everyone needs to or even should go to college. There should be a very specific reason that one goes - because their profession of choice/desire requires it.

One can earn an extremely good living in one of the many trades available, and because most kids today are either lazy or just uninformed, these jobs are in huge demand, because not nearly enough qualified people are available to fill them.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: KnoxMSP

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: DBCowboy

So 1/7 of the population .

So if I'm successful, how much do you want to punish and penalize me to give those that are unsuccessful the same lifestyle I have?

None, we just want our fair shake from our economy.





How hard is that to understand? I dont want welfare, I want my dollar to go further, and have more power, but somehow you can't grasp that. Smdh, you are like an ostrich. Sorry, but putting your head in the sand ain't gonna work.

Who said life was fair?

You get he same "shake" that the rest of us get.

I Work , You Pay Me .
You Work , I Pay You .

Simple Economics . Trade and Barter . Only an Idiot could Not Understand and Embrace it .

a reply to: tanstaafl

That would never get you elected, because that would flood our markets with foreign goods from countries where labor and products are cheaper.

Now, I have no problem with free trade... competition is what markets thrive on. But, we have a lot of people in the US that are starting to realize that the point of competition is to create losers, not winners... and that American Exceptionalism is a myth, so they're starting to lose... a lot. Meaning they simply want to bar others from our markets hoping they can compete among other nonncompetitive people.

It's funny how people champion the concept of competition only when they're winning it. When the point of competition is to make you work better/harder/faster when you're behind in order to overtake the complacent ones at the top.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Working multiple jobs does not get you through university. The regular state schools will run you about $40,000 in tuition, and then another $60,000 in living expenses. That's $100,000 for a degree. That would be $25,000 per year, which is 3448 hours of work at minimum wage, or 2500 hours of work at $10/hour. Now, figure that in university you should be putting in 3 hours out of class for every hour in class, and that you will have about 15 hours in class per week, so 60 hours out of class per week. At 2 16 week semesters/year that's 32 weeks where you're using 60 hours/week, or 1920 hours per year. 10 hours/night of sleep so that you avoid health issues, and that's another 3650 hours per year. There are 8760 hours per year. So minus sleep and school that's 3190 hours. Minus travel time, meal time, and so on, figure that's another 2.5 hours per day and you're down to 2278 hours. 2278 hours is just under 44 hours per week, meaning that even if you work more than 40 hours per week, you cannot afford tuition, rent, and food as a college student, unless of course you're making more than $10.97 per hour after taxes, or about $14/hour before taxes.

By the way, community college is actually more expensive these days than 4 year universities. This is due to the added cost of living expenses, and the fact that you're paying for 4 semesters of tuition, and 2 years of living expenses to save 3 semesters at the university of your choice. So, you already come out behind due to rent, but then the opportunity cost of not working for a year puts you even further behind.

a reply to: Dfairlite

The biggest problem with average wages (and why I don't even like arguing that point honestly) is that the value of the dollar is nowhere close to equal across the US. Wages are much higher in cities, even though purchasing power isn't much different. In more rural areas wages are lower, but local products are in line with those wages. Someone has to make $40/hour to make rent in San Francisco, but they can do it where I live at $7.25/hour. Yet, if you average those two people it gives a wage of $24/hour which severely misrepresents both of their incomes.

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: KnoxMSP

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: DBCowboy

So 1/7 of the population .

So if I'm successful, how much do you want to punish and penalize me to give those that are unsuccessful the same lifestyle I have?

None, we just want our fair shake from our economy.





How hard is that to understand? I dont want welfare, I want my dollar to go further, and have more power, but somehow you can't grasp that. Smdh, you are like an ostrich. Sorry, but putting your head in the sand ain't gonna work.

Who said life was fair?

You get he same "shake" that the rest of us get.

I Work , You Pay Me .
You Work , I Pay You .

Simple Economics . Trade and Barter . Only an Idiot could Not Understand and Embrace it .

Except most the people paying are taking a larger portion for themselves, and if you dont loke your sliver of pie, there are 1000 other people who will take that sliver.

Not being happy with that doesn't mean one doesnt understand ecoonomics, in fact your statement shows how little you know about it, as it is much more complex that your watered down claim.

As someone who has generated 100's of millions in sales (tobacco distribution) I have seen how it works. You think when the president of my company started making more money, due to the hard work of his employees, he would pass a portion of that on to them? Hell no. He amassed as large a fortune as he could, and kept extra profit for himself. Our wages were stagnant, and he was acquiring more land, ships, etc for his personal estate. Now that is fine, his company, his increase in profits, as long as trickle down occurs, with out current sysyem, people are happy. But, the trickle never comes. Wages didn't increase. So I resigned. Had a good 401k, and was tired of all the BS with no raise in salary, so I left, and they did much worse. Had to hire outside help, and still arent near what I sold (my brother is still in tobacco).

So i went back to school for a trade (in my 30's, that was weird) and couldnt be happier. I am fine financially, but it doesnt change the fact that the system is broken, and we are allowing corporations and elites to dictate or DI and COL. I want better for my children.

originally posted by: dfnj2015I might as well have said "Trump stinks" in my OP judging by the responses.

unfortunately anything that isn't actual glowing praise of trump is interpreted as 'trump stinks' by his devoted fans, resulting in instant hostility.

originally posted by: RoScoLaz5

originally posted by: dfnj2015I might as well have said "Trump stinks" in my OP judging by the responses.

unfortunately anything that isn't actual glowing praise of trump is interpreted as 'trump stinks' by his devoted fans, resulting in instant hostility.

This has suprised me the most. I support our President, and will most likely vote for him again, but the people who stand with me, seem blind to reality, and feel any perception of our failing economy is leftist, instead of trying to create dialogue and finding solutions to our problems.

YOU GUYS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

a reply to: Aazadan

Agreed, average is a terrible thing really.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: pexx421
Sure. Let me help you out. Capital gains are exploitive because any time you are making money without working for it, you are taking it away from those who do work for it. That’s the free lunch.

Sorry, don't need your kind of 'help'...

First - while the person enjoying the gains on their property that they have decided to risk in the markets or some other fashion may not directly labor for those returns, it is a total non-sequitur to claim that these gains are somehow 'taken away' from other people who do exchange their labor for compensation.

The one has absolutely nothing to do with the other, and to claim that it does - well, it exhibits a gross incompetence when it comes to having a grasp on economics, or how markets work.

Otherwise - by all means, explain how one persons capital gain equates to someone else's 'loss'.

It makes far more sense for people to be taxed on money that they don’t work for rather than money they have to create with labor.

It only makes sense to people whose goal is to promote jealousy and class envy, rather than promoting self-help and 'how to succeed in a capitalist society'.

The market is not some magical, self regulating thing as libertarians seem to think.

Never said it was, and I agree there needs to be some minimal but substantive controls on the markets, but only in the furtherance of protecting people from theft and fraud.

They manipulate labor with outsourcing, and force labor to compete with third world countries,

I agree 100% - see my recent post in this thread as to how to deal with this problem effectively.

and they manipulate legislation so they don’t have to pay their share of taxes,

This is a purely bogus argument intended to push people's 'greed/envy' buttons.

Corporations/businesses don't pay taxes. People do. No matter how you try to hide this reality, it is reality. A tax - any tax - is just a cost of doing business that gets passed to the consumer in one way or another.

or their products become mandated,

Monopolies created by legislative fiat should be broken up, and there should be a Constitutional Amendment implemented to prevent corporations from being treated as 'persons' within the meaning of our Constitutions (both Federal and State) and legislation, and from having anywhere near the same Rights as people do.

A natural monopoly, if it ever were to exist, would be ok with me, as long as there were no unnatural barriers to any potential competitors, and said monopoly didn't take illegal/fraudulent action to harm a potential competitor (this would include extreme price gouging, ie, selling at a loss for an extended period of time just to put a competitor out of business because the monopoly has enough cash on hand to absorb the losses for a long enough time to extinguish the competition.

Of course, a law covering this would be interesting in its creation and implementation.

or they take taxpayer money in no bid contracts,

Government should never, ever, under any circumstances, provide any private or non-private entity with money for commercial or related purposes.

No more grants to colleges for 'research' purposes. No more grants to study this disease or that new technology.

None. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

or they limit harvest or production to create false scarcity, or they start a war to get arms, munitions, and rebuilding contracts, or they make propaganda to manipulate the public to keep mj illegal so they get more prisoner money.....

Same... no more interventionist practices by our governments (federal and state).

Really the ways that those with money control the market keeps going on and on and the fact you don’t recognize it

Objection: assumes facts not in evidence.

Sorry, but I have never said that I don't believe that governments and large corporate interests don't manipulate the markets - but I would argue that they do not control them, in a direct and granular fashion.

FYI, the “free market” was originally a socialist idea, and it meant a market free from rent, monopolies, and exploitation.

Prove it. I highly doubt you are correct, but I'm always open to learning something new.

Excellent. I see there are many things we agree on, as well as some we disagree on, but that’s good. As to free market, Michael Hudson, the godson of Trotsky, goes well into the history of the fact we’ve largely erased the history of economics and repurposed the definition of words to capture the hearts and minds for the bankers. In his book “j is for junk economics” he goes into the history of how definitions and education of history have changed over time, and the fallacies they now teach in Chicago school economics which is the prevailing neoliberal paradigm. I don’t think anyone would argue that neoliberalism has been good for the majority of the people of the us or the world. He even includes his roles working for J.P. Morgan, citi bank, the us govt and others over time setting up the very systems of offshore accounts we used, primarily originally to circulate back in drug money to keep the economy going during the Vietnam war, as well as his role in helping govt and banks understand how to exploit third world nations of all their surplus profits. He explains how the oil corporations use multiple nations to move oil around and refine it in different areas to allow them to completely avoid taxes. And he explains the history of socialism and the free market they espoused, which has now been coopted to mean the opposite of what it originally did. You can watch his bio on YouTube as well, it’s damn interesting as he explains the actual work he did with those companies early in his career. It’s pretty funny too.

m.youtube.com...