Our economy stinks

The economy is terrible and has been for many years. Only through smoke and mirrors and a focus on how well the wealthy are doing does the economy look peachy keen. Just look around you, all the closed stores and empty office spaces. A huge number of people who live paycheck to paycheck, who cannot afford even a $1000 emergency. Massive personal debt. Employment numbers that do not account for living wages, or hours worked — a person is considered employed if they work ONE hour per week. That's utter BS and devoid of any meaning whatsoever. The fact is, since Reagan took office in the 1980s, average family earnings have remained flat while the rich get richer. Way richer. That's 45 years of a massive transfer of wealth from the middle class to the upper class. It's not sustainable people, and it's going to crash soon and crash hard if we don't make things right. We can do it orderly with as little pain as possible, or...

originally posted by: pexx421
Chinas actual purchasing power has quadrupled for the average citizen over the last 10 years. Their manufacturing has exploded and industrialization and middle class have grown faster than any civilization in history. They single handedly kept capitalism from total collapse for the last decade.

Yeah, guess their unfair trade practices and ripping off of our intellectual property really helped their economy.

Alas, for them, the Trump Train has arrived and the free ride is over.

I look forward to hearing the details of the new China trade deal coming in the next few months (or maybe year or two).

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: pexx421
Chinas actual purchasing power has quadrupled for the average citizen over the last 10 years. Their manufacturing has exploded and industrialization and middle class have grown faster than any civilization in history. They single handedly kept capitalism from total collapse for the last decade.

Yeah, guess their unfair trade practices and ripping off of our intellectual property really helped their economy.

Alas, for them, the Trump Train has arrived and the free ride is over.

I look forward to hearing the details of the new China trade deal coming in the next few months (or maybe year or two).

Free ride? They actually work. I’m sorry, but this isn’t going to turn out how you think. The us Econ is on the train to destruction, and China will not save it this time the way they did in 08. You think they got rich off stolen tech? They got to 5g ahead of us. Further, apparently you don’t understand “stealing”. If a company makes a deal to transfer tech as part of an agreement, that’s not stealing. It’s an agreement. Stealing is like when the wealthy elite take all the increases in profit for themselves over 40 years rather than sharing the profit with those who produce it. Trump train hasn’t done anything to stop their free ride. Alas, the trump train will be overseeing the economic collapse of the us shortly as the bankers were allowed to steal trillions from the taxpayers in 08.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: pexx421
Chinas actual purchasing power has quadrupled for the average citizen over the last 10 years. Their manufacturing has exploded and industrialization and middle class have grown faster than any civilization in history. They single handedly kept capitalism from total collapse for the last decade.

Yeah, guess their unfair trade practices and ripping off of our intellectual property really helped their economy.

Alas, for them, the Trump Train has arrived and the free ride is over.

I look forward to hearing the details of the new China trade deal coming in the next few months (or maybe year or two).

And exactly what unfair trade practices are you referring to? Because I’m fine if you want to sit here and compare us trade treaties with other nations vs China trade treaties. I assure you the us will not come out favorably. Our philosophy doesn’t believe in “win win” when it comes to trade, it’s always “I win you lose”.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Not sure why anyone trusts numbers from China. Seriously with all the focus on corruption in this county its just boggles my mind that anyone believes a thing that comes out of China. China's economic numbers are normally ridiculed. Most Chinese are so brain washed they think Tienanmen Square is western propaganda

originally posted by: atlantiswatusi
a reply to: dfnj2015

Not sure why anyone trusts numbers from China. Seriously with all the focus on corruption in this county its just boggles my mind that anyone believes a thing that comes out of China. China's economic numbers are normally ridiculed. Most Chinese are so brain washed they think Tienanmen Square is western propaganda

Kind of like Kent state massacre? And the Tuskegee affair? And mkultra? And apparently now Lyme disease? And how most Americans think our govt and military don’t do those things anymore.

a reply to: atlantiswatusi

At any rate I wouldn’t expect their numbers to be any less believable than our ridiculous numbers like our fake gdp, unemployment, etc.

a reply to: Bloodworth

And that only started when Trump took office? Because Trump and his supporters are suddenly acting like America is great again while simultaneously reminding us everyday what a hellhole we live in with all the illegals, homeless and drugs, well which is it? Imo we have a long way to go before we can make this country great for all.

originally posted by: conspiracy nut
a reply to: Bloodworth

And that only started when Trump took office? Because Trump and his supporters are suddenly acting like America is great again while simultaneously reminding us everyday what a hellhole we live in with all the illegals, homeless and drugs, well which is it? Imo we have a long way to go before we can make this country great for all.

I agree. Though I dont see a disparity between races or genders like the MSM paints it to be. It is just the old haves vs have game, and the haves are taking a bigger portion than ever. Cant last forever. Eventually an uprising or disaster will happen. I may not even see it, but it is going to suck for my 9&11yo kids.

So I didn’t read the whole thread past the OP - and I’m not going to.

Our economy is fine.

The OP needs to learn to scale numbers and also read the book ‘How to Lie with Statistics” at least once.

Sigh...

I love making essentially what my parents did, 35 years later. Oh yeah, the cost of living means a 1br apartment is 1500$ and an hour commute to work. a 6 pack is 12$.
I went to college, top of my class in my field, constant struggle.

Focus on growing the spending power of the middle classes. Not that hard work shouldn't be rewarded for those that are on the top, what about hard work for everyone else? This 15 minimum wage crap is gonna suck. Images you make 18/hr and you manage employee starting at 12/hr. Now they start at 15, with no skills, unlike you their superior with experience. After a few months they want a raise. Now they are on your paygrade, and have less skill and experience. Your hard work to grow yourself is meaningless on this scale.

a reply to: KnoxMSP

originally posted by: pexx421
50% of the working population makes less than $18 an hour.

So... what... you think that kids (20 and under) should be making more? What about the 15 yr old just getting their feet wet in the working world? Burger flippers? Walmart greeters?

Sorry, but if you want to earn more, acquire a skill that is in demand.

Let me repeat, the us makes more money than it ever has. It’s gdp has increased every year for the last 40 years. And yet during that time wages have stagnated.

Yes - until Trump. Now they are growing for the first time in a long time.

Blame the democrats/socialists/welfare state.

Instead we tax labor the most, and capital gains the least.

I'll give you one thing. I personally think we should abolish the income tax and repeal the 16th amendment, and pass a new amendment forbidding the taxation of 'wages' (aka 'compensation for labor') and capital gains, allowing only consumption based sales taxes (with automatic exceptions for things that and transactional taxes on privileged taxable events (stock market comes to mind), but limit these

Give massive tax breaks to the wealthy,

They get the same elimination of taxation on their labor as everyone else.

and offset it by cutting social spending on our already strapped working class. Nonsensical.

I much prefer to allow people to keep 100% of what they earn, and these social ills will take care of themselves. The American people are extremely charitable, and if they are able to keep all of their money, they will give a lot more to charities, and the charities and religious organizations will take care of those that need help.

That is not the governments job - and it is obvious to anyone with eyes that they do a horrible job at it when they try.

originally posted by: KnoxMSP
It is just the old haves vs have game, and the haves are taking a bigger portion than ever. Cant last forever. Eventually an uprising or disaster will happen. I may not even see it, but it is going to suck for my 9&11yo kids.

Well, my nephew just graduated from Aviation Electronics school, and will be taking his pick of jobs starting at around $75k/yr.

Honestly - kids today mostly just don't wanna work, they're spoiled by all of the participation trophy's they've collected over the years, thanks to our ridiculous anti-education system we have in this country.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: KnoxMSP
It is just the old haves vs have game, and the haves are taking a bigger portion than ever. Cant last forever. Eventually an uprising or disaster will happen. I may not even see it, but it is going to suck for my 9&11yo kids.

Well, my nephew just graduated from Aviation Electronics school, and will be taking his pick of jobs starting at around $75k/yr.

Honestly - kids today mostly just don't wanna work, they're spoiled by all of the participation trophy's they've collected over the years, thanks to our ridiculous anti-education system we have in this country.

How much debt? Also, 75k isnt much. Thats barely middle class today. Do you not look at COLI? Have you added up morgagte, util, insurance, you know, the cost of living? 75k doesnt go far. My wife and I make more than that.

Also, I know commercial pilots making less than 75k, so I would like to see the proof of that.

That is B.S again. I am genx, with a bachelors in administration of business, that will get me $15/hr where I am. Kids today dont want to work for peanuts with overwhelming debt. Cannot say I blame them. I was promised my entire school career to "just go to college, and get a degree". I did that. Now what? The market is flooded, and I am 50k in debt for university. As is my wife. So how do we put money away while financing a family, and paying all our bills? We are already as frugal as possible. We drive a 97, and 03 cars, have 30 dollar cell phon3s, and eat at home 90% of the time. House is 1350 for a regular 3/2.

originally posted by: KnoxMSP
How much debt? Also, 75k isnt much. Thats barely middle class today.

He has zero debt and is only 20 yrs old. And I said that is his starting pay. Barely middle class? Maybe... but not bad for a single kid just starting his life.

But you're right, I was thinking of something else. He is getting offers where he starts at $57k/yr, not $75k - but that is still really good for a 20 yr old, and again, it has huge potential growth.

Do you not look at COLI? Have you added up morgagte, util, insurance, you know, the cost of living?

Seeing as I have had to deal with these things for 37 years now (I'm 57) - what do you think?

75k doesnt go far.

Not if you are clueless, and live beyond your means. Or... live in Cali or NYC.

My wife and I make more than that.

So do I (a little more, and by myself). So?

That is B.S again. I am genx, with a bachelors in administration of business, that will get me $15/hr where I am.

A Batchelors. That's an entry level degree. What do you expect for that?

Kids today dont want to work for peanuts with overwhelming debt.

Actually, most don't want to work at all. Most, not all. The divide is mostly between those who went to the Public Fool system, vs those who went to private schools.

Cannot say I blame them.

I was promised my entire school career to "just go to college, and get a degree". I did that. Now what?

Now you understand they were lying to you. It sucks, I know, and I don't necessarily blame you. But now you have to own it. Stop listening to others. Make your own way. Life is a journey, not a destination. Find something you love to do, and figure out how to make money at it.

The market is flooded, and I am 50k in debt for university. As is my wife. So how do we put money away while financing a family, and paying all our bills? We are already as frugal as possible. We drive a 97, and 03 cars, have 30 dollar cell phon3s, and eat at home 90% of the time. House is 1350 for a regular 3/2.

I feel for you. You should have gone to a good trade school, and waited on the family part (kids are expensive).

I'm really glad I didn't fall into that trap. I got my GED halfway through the 11th grade, joined the Coast Guard at 17, where I got my basic electronics skills, then got a job working in a warehouse of a large computer chain (Inacomp Computers in Atlanta), convinced them to give me a chance in the tech dept, and learned computers and networking on the job. Eventually found my way to a job as the I.T. Director for a small company (60 or so employees), where I've been for the last 20 years.

originally posted by: Rob808
I love making essentially what my parents did, 35 years later. Oh yeah, the cost of living means a 1br apartment is 1500$ and an hour commute to work. a 6 pack is 12$.
I went to college, top of my class in my field, constant struggle.

Focus on growing the spending power of the middle classes. Not that hard work shouldn't be rewarded for those that are on the top, what about hard work for everyone else? This 15 minimum wage crap is gonna suck. Images you make 18/hr and you manage employee starting at 12/hr. Now they start at 15, with no skills, unlike you their superior with experience. After a few months they want a raise. Now they are on your paygrade, and have less skill and experience. Your hard work to grow yourself is meaningless on this scale.

a reply to: KnoxMSP

But at least you can retire at near dead as the age to retire keeps heading up.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: KnoxMSP
It is just the old haves vs have game, and the haves are taking a bigger portion than ever. Cant last forever. Eventually an uprising or disaster will happen. I may not even see it, but it is going to suck for my 9&11yo kids.

Well, my nephew just graduated from Aviation Electronics school, and will be taking his pick of jobs starting at around $75k/yr.

Honestly - kids today mostly just don't wanna work, they're spoiled by all of the participation trophy's they've collected over the years, thanks to our ridiculous anti-education system we have in this country.

Most of the kids in our area come from Families so poor there is no way their kids could go off to any school. That takes money. The collapse of fishing industries and many other collapses leave many areas without jobs but also without the means to sell and move. People mortgage their homes a few times to send a kid to school and still need loans.

a reply to: tanstaafl

He has zero debt and is only 20 yrs old.

Someone paid for his training. Most people have to do it with student loans.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: pexx421
50% of the working population makes less than $18 an hour.

So... what... you think that kids (20 and under) should be making more? What about the 15 yr old just getting their feet wet in the working world? Burger flippers? Walmart greeters?

Sorry, but if you want to earn more, acquire a skill that is in demand.

Let me repeat, the us makes more money than it ever has. It’s gdp has increased every year for the last 40 years. And yet during that time wages have stagnated.

Yes - until Trump. Now they are growing for the first time in a long time.

Blame the democrats/socialists/welfare state.

Instead we tax labor the most, and capital gains the least.

I'll give you one thing. I personally think we should abolish the income tax and repeal the 16th amendment, and pass a new amendment forbidding the taxation of 'wages' (aka 'compensation for labor') and capital gains, allowing only consumption based sales taxes (with automatic exceptions for things that and transactional taxes on privileged taxable events (stock market comes to mind), but limit these

Give massive tax breaks to the wealthy,

They get the same elimination of taxation on their labor as everyone else.

and offset it by cutting social spending on our already strapped working class. Nonsensical.

I much prefer to allow people to keep 100% of what they earn, and these social ills will take care of themselves. The American people are extremely charitable, and if they are able to keep all of their money, they will give a lot more to charities, and the charities and religious organizations will take care of those that need help.

That is not the governments job - and it is obvious to anyone with eyes that they do a horrible job at it when they try.

I think If you take the minimum wage from 40 years ago, adjust it for inflation and productivity, and that’s what kids, Walmart greeters, and others similar should be getting. From most of the research I’ve seen that’s $18-20 an hour. Wages may be pushed up in the near future, but it’s not because trump. It’s because sanders campaign has forced target, Amazon, and Walmart to push their wages up. This is not debated. Trump has done nothing to increase wages, just more tax breaks for the wealthy which led to stock buybacks and big bonuses.

A consumption tax is the most regressive tax of all, and would only tax .5% of the wealthy elites income while taxing 100% of the poor and working class income. Way to shift the burdens of societies cost onto those that benefit from it the least. I agree labor should not be taxed at all. The only income tax should be on unearned income. That’s capital gains, rent, and other forms of exploitation.

Lastly, the American people are not charitable for the same reason that they don’t pay enough in taxes to cover the deficit. All, directly, because their wages have been suppressed so long that they have no money to donate or to tax. By suppressing wages the tax base is reduced, and there’s less money to consume, this destroys govt function, social programs, and economic fluidity. Great idea. If wages had kept pace with productivity growth and gdp our nation, economy, and people would be strong, healthy and secure. By fighting wage growth and allowing the owners to steal all the added profit through off shoring, outsourcing, and illegal immigration, and largely due to destruction of workers rights and negotiating power, we stand once again on the precipice of our never ending cycles of bust.

Every single point you make is the narrative created by the wealthy elite, and followed for the last 30 years by the neoliberal model to make debtors and peons of everyone except the wealthy elite. It has no basis in fact and everywhere it’s implemented it leads to a small group of oligarchs lording over a huge poverty stricken population. Way to soak up the psyops and fight against your own interests and those of your fellow working class.

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
Most of the kids in our area come from Families so poor there is no way their kids could go off to any school. That takes money. The collapse of fishing industries and many other collapses leave many areas without jobs but also without the means to sell and move. People mortgage their homes a few times to send a kid to school and still need loans.

Well, that isn't the case for most.

Out of curiosity, where is this you speak of? I'd be moving my family out of there if I was anywhere like that.