Boris Jonson Elected as New Prime Minister of The UK.

a reply to: andy06shake

Aye once they beat down the poor , where do they go from there, to the working class, then the middle class !

its madness I tell ye

we should abandon this project we have called "government" and do away with politics
its a fools game

a reply to: sapien82

I tend to agree there, don't know what the alternative would be all the same.

Sheer capitalism screws the poor just as much as government.

And we need to keep our industries and technologies headed in the correct direction.

Fools game indeed.

The alternative presented seems to be if we don't play "There" game we will stagnate and die.

Somehow i imagine there is a middle ground where we all get a semi-fair share.

They are not up for telling us where that is nor how to get there all the same or sharing in any kind of meaningful manner.

They would have us believe that equality is a fool's game because people are not equal, dont mean we should not aspire to such through.

a reply to: Freeborn

I don't necessarily disagree but I will say that some regions chose the option of no work. I will clarify that by relating an experience of a friend.

Following the pit closures, a friend of mine worked with the unemployed miners trying to find them more jobs, training, college, etc. He did this for over 30 years so it wasn't a passing experience, his observations were based on a working life of experience. He was based in South Yorkshire in a certain town that old S Y-L visited many a time (don't want to be too specific as he hasn't quite got to pensionable age yet!).

In one of the areas in this town there are whole families that haven't worked in the entire time he has done this job. When he asks them why, the answer is always that "the government screwed us over so they can pay for us to do nothing".

My friend is a dye in the wool Labour man (I know, friends with a Tory like me!). He is ex (long ago) Socialist Worker. And he get can't get his head around this attitude, it is anathema to him. They feel comfortable admitting things like this to him because they know his background.

Now obviously huge areas are not like this but it is precisely because of attitudes like this that the government had to try something.

I just want them to put the same sort of effort now into corporate tax evasion, which would allow them to relax (a bit) on Universal credit.

a reply to: Flavian

Seems to me our society is perfectly happy to throw away entire generations down to war or simply not having the need for them, and then complain a few decades later when some of the poor souls still exist.

I'm with you on the corporate tax evasion all the same as i imagine the revenue overlooked/misplaced or simply unaccounted for is possibly in the trillions.

Thing is its a different law for some, or so it seems to me.

a reply to: TheShippingForecast

The only assumptions I make are that you wish the U.K. to remain as present,.....

Quite the opposite, I want REAL change....
Radical reform of our electoral and parliamentary procedures.
An end to the party political system that has outlived its fit for purpose.
Devolved power to ALL the regions within some sort of Federal framework.
A certain amount of redistribution of power, influence and wealth.

I could go on and on and go into real depth but I suspect I'd bore the tits off the majority of people reading this....I know such personal manifesto's bore the crap out of me.

....that you don’t wish Scotland to be independent.....

I think the people of the UK have a better chance of making real and positive change together....but independence is a matter for Scottish people alone and I'd respect whatever decision they came too.

.... and that you have no interest in the Northern Isles other than as an anti Scottish independence debating point.

The whole point behind this site is to debate, why else would I mention something and why else would I have been a member here for so long?

Had the internet and ATS been available in the 1920’s, you’d be seen here arguing against independence for Ireland, India and all the rest. Because it’s the same basic issue : the right to determine your own future for yourself.

Yet again, more assumptions.
And yet again way wide of the mark.

You do your argument no favours.....

You think I come here for favours or approval?

..... by constantly reminding us about the down side of independence, of troubles that might come our way following a successful Yes vote.

But isn't that one of the most basic points of seeking debate; to seek alternative viewpoints and opinions?
If you seek meek acquiescence then I think ATS may not be best suited to you.

The Scottish contributors here are acutely aware of the risks that independence may bring.

Some are, some aren't.

I was here during the IndyRef back in 2014 and had many a lively, open and at times heated discussion with many Scottish members, many, if not most, of whom supported independence.
That we have incredibly respectful and dare I say it quite friendly relations despite still disagreeing passionately on some subjects stands testament to the credibility and integrity of all concerned.

I travel to Scotland quite frequently and have many very good Scottish friends.

I've heard, and still here, the various arguments for independence.
But I personally think none of those arguments are strong enough to completely sever ties with the rest of the UK.

I fully support increased devolved powers, as I do for ALL the regions of the UK.
We all need to break free from Westminster.

a reply to: Flavian

I don't condone that attitude, but I fully understand it.

Whole towns and communities completely made redundant with literally no hope, no nothing.
Its hard not to become bitter and twisted.

As Andy says, whole generations despatched to fight what essentially are their wars and then what 'benefits' were 'given' to them are being steadily clawed back.

I know you live in York but come and have a look around some areas in Teesside, the pit villages in Co Durham and Northumbria, parts of Tyneside and Wearside....it is reminiscent of the post-war years.

When brought up in such circumstances its hard to break the cycle and escape from the benefits lifestyle choice.
Yes, some people need a frigging big push to do so but we need to provide tangible alternatives other than zero hour contracts and minimum wage.

a reply to: Freeborn

I was talking about maintaining the UK as presently constituted, not any of your other proposed reforms.
As well you know. So you can get off that high horse.

The status of the Northern Isles isn't a serious issue to either the islanders or Scotland, not at the moment at least. You mention it only because Sullom Voe, on Shetland, is host to a major oil and gas terminal. You've raised the issue of the Northern Isles not out of any genuine concern for the welfare of Shetlanders and how they choose to be governed. You're just throwing it into the pot because you're wondering out loud about the possibility of them going independent, thereby denying Scotland a source of revenue. Beggar thy neighbour, after all.

You'd do well to include the issue of the constitutional arrangements of the Northern Isles along with the rest of your own personal manifesto, albeit somewhere near the bottom of the list. Debate is one thing. Inviting debate of your own own late night fantasies is a different subject altogether, more for alternative history/timelines.

No one comes here to simply acquiesce. But, once in a while, it might be nice for those who seek to maintain the present arrangements to accept that there is a very valid case for Scottish independence, rather than just re-hash the same tired old arguments which have been present on ATS for so long. And it would genuinely be nice for persons like yourself to consider where we're coming from, even once in a while.

a reply to: Freeborn

I get your points very well, and they got me curious so I googled "poor villages in Co Durham" and thought how I could make it there if my legs weren't #ed. I know what I say next is not gonna be popular but here goes anyway...

Jobs near Horden which apparently has starving kids according to left wing newspapers, easy within my healthy days walk to work radius of Hartlepool, there are jobs a plenty I could find, from factories, to on the bins with the council, production operatives at Peterlee, 12 quid an hour, loads of jobs.

I then searched rented homes, # me you can get a 3 bed house for 300 quid a month there!
I then searched EU nationals in the north east, 60,000 apparently at a low estimate, 2000 of them in Hartlepool doing those jobs which apparently aren't available.
Sorry mate, but if it is so crap there, explain why thousands of people move there to find a good life?
If I was with full mobility I could easily set myself up there and build a new life within weeks.
And on a sidenote, the coastline looks fantastic there, I could happily live somewhere like that not surrounded by concrete...but what do I know, just sounds like your boys have just given up, and I take no pleasure drawing that conclusion.

a reply to: Silure

Googling a few things and saying 'look it's easy' doesn't translate to the real world and every ones different situation exactly mate, talk is cheap!

Come on Cornish, same old same old ... It's boring!

a reply to: Silure

I said areas within the North East, not the whole bloody North East!

I had a look at jobs available in the town that I live.
Nearly every single one of them required some existing skill level - every one of which would have excluded me if I'd wanted to apply - or were minimum wage or agency work, which is almost certainly zero hours contract.

Rental prices for a three bedroom house tend to be around the £425 upwards depending on specific area/type etc.

Don't know where they go for around £300pcm but please let me know because I know a few people who'd be interested in buying property there.

Never said its crap here, I love it here or I wouldn't still be here would I.
Just that parts of it are as run down as anywhere else in the UK and whole communities and generations had been consigned to the scrap heap.
When caught in that trap it can be very hard to get out of it.

a reply to: valiant

Lol Cornish again 😂
Ignoring that silliness, I googled as if I was gonna do it myself, have done so many times in my life and in days before mobile phones, using crap street maps bought from a garage.
You haven't convinced me at all, I see broken spirits and lack of self belief, unless you are saying everyone in that area is disabled? I could easily google the stats for that as well.

Out of interest I found more than 10 jobs I could apply for even in my state, call centres, and telesales, not the biggest earners but more than I live off now, and with dirt cheap housing as well.
Sorry, but I know you think I am lucky silver spoon bourgeois Tory type but far from it, grew up dirt poor, made money, lost money, started again from the bottom, built things up then got crippled so skint again now living off £68 per week for food, gas, lecky, water, mobile phone, clothes, toiletries, and whatever else.

I'm chasing sit down work which I can do and I don't even have to attend any jobcentres looking for work to get my pittance insurance injury money, I believe in myself, and I will grab the next rung on the ladder again , every time.

I'll say it again, your people seem like they have given up, and you didn't explain why thousands of eastern Europeans move there to live and work?
I think the broken mindset is tragic, even today when some lads took the piss out of me for "walking like a spaz" on my way back from the shop. I smiled at them and said lads, just be glad for your health and use it while you can to make your lives the best you can make them.
They looked confused for a moment then realised I was trying to inspire them so said cheers man, sorry like, only taking the piss. I smiled and said go chase your lives before you end up an old cripple bastard like me. They laughed.

Whatever though, be as broken and lost as you wish, dwell in the house of victimized if you like, but that ain't my world, and I'd make it in that poor village the same as EU people seem to be doing as well.
Hate my opinion as well, i'm not dissing people, more sad for them that they have lost their spirit.

a reply to: Freeborn

Some well nice places at this link, honestly you don't know you're born!!!
www.rightmove.co.uk...

a reply to: TheShippingForecast

I was talking about maintaining the UK as presently constituted, not any of your other proposed reforms.
As well you know.

But I don't want the UK 'as presently constituted', so what on earth are you waffling on about?
I explained that so the rest is pretty much a moot point.

So you can get off that high horse.

Pot and kettle spring to mind.

The status of the Northern Isles isn't a serious issue to either the islanders or Scotland, not at the moment at least.

I'm sure it is to those who live there.
Your casual dismissal of them speaks volumes.

You mention it only because......

I only mentioned it to make a point about The Right to Self-Determination and how some people are extremely selective in their support for it.

Beggar thy neighbour, after all.

I would have absolutely no desire to see an independent Scotland skint and poor, why would I?

Inviting debate of your own own late night fantasies is a different subject altogether, more for alternative history/timelines.

What exactly is your problem with me mentioning areas where I personally would like to see significant change and reform in response to your accusation and allegation that I 'wish the UK to remain the same'?
I quite clearly don't.

Stop your waffling and all the smoke in mirror bollocks.
What exactly is your problem here?

And it would genuinely be nice for persons like yourself to consider where we're coming from, even once in a while.

Trust me, I've had those discussions on numerous occasions here on ATS and in real life and I have given those arguments an immense amount of respect and consideration....I personally haven't heard an argument that convinces me that total independence would be in Scotland's best interests.
I have an immense amount of respect for a few ATS members who disagree with me on this and strong and deep real life friendships with quite a few Scots who passionately support an independent Scotland - as I do with some who support The Union.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I haven't given your argument and viewpoint due consideration.
Why do you assume that I haven't?

a reply to: Silure

Ha ha.

One thing I am certain of though....you aren't CCG.

Never mind, I'd still get you a few beers and see you alright if our paths ever cross in real life mate.

Got to say I have a lot of respect for your apparent endeavour and spirit, I really hope it all turns out good for you.

a reply to: Freeborn

You're the one playing smoke and mirrors with your spurious claims.

I've said repeatedly I'm quite content for the Northern Isles to determine their own future. I haven't dismissed any of their concerns about feeling remote from London or Edinburgh or being detached from the political system. I can see advantages in them aiming for a different status. You're the one making out that those in favour of Scottish independence would seek to deny those on the Shetland and Orkney Islands a say in their own status. You just don't like it that I, for one, ain't taking the bait.

I can't foresee a scenario where the Northern Isles would ever vote for independence. I can see a change to their status, sure, if that's what they wish. But that's where your fantasies are coming in, the Northern Isles declaring independence.

My casual dismissal ? I'm not being lectured by you about how those far from the centre of power feel ignored, their issues never taken seriously ... Scotland had that for decades up until the establishment of the Scottish Parliament. As did many parts of England, if I'm being honest.

The UK as presently constituted. Duh. Stop playing as daft, seriously.
UK. England, Scotland, Wales & NI.

I have no problems with you advocating for change. But I've never once seen you contribute here with anything positive to say about any aspect of Scottish independence, not once. There's not one single issue where you would concede that without equivocation that doing our own thing might actually be a positive outcome.

You're the one with the closed mind, on independence at least. I can't believe that someone who is otherwise so progressive on other issues is so staid and double dosed colonial/paternalistic in their mindset when it comes to Scotland and the independence issue.

So many of you will be on the wrong side of history with this. It won't be forgotten.

a reply to: Freeborn

Cheers mate 👍
Honestly though we are just blokes hacking out our own paths as best we can, gotta always believe in ourselves though, when we lose our spirit is when as people we are broken.
Side note, but if I'm not back earning decent money in some sit down gig by next summer, I'll use my disabled bus pass to travel around England with my tent and rock up in all the towns I never knew existed before.
Even googling earlier finding that Co Durham poverty village, found their beach as well, looks #ing great, reckon I'd meet some right funny as # proper decent boys at the local or working mens club.

Camp up, probably get the offer of someone's back garden to pitch my tent as well after a pint or two, grew up in a similar world, just different location ☺️
If I'm still a member here then I'll give out my location and routes, some psycho might wanna chop me up or worse out there but the overwhelming majority of people I've found around the world, rich and poor, just wanna have a laugh, pint, maybe a game of pool, when we lose that is when we are truly #ed as a society.

originally posted by: TheShippingForecast
a reply to: Freeborn
I've never once seen you contribute here with anything positive to say about any aspect of Scottish independence, not once.

I've been well supportive and you are #ed off with me as well!!! 😂😂😂
#CantWin

...only taking the piss mate, I'd butt into your exchange if we were all in the pub and say the same 😛

a reply to: Silure

Away you back to your pasty.

a reply to: TheShippingForecast

lol, I nearly got one from the Greggs place earlier but for half the price I got 500g pack of ham reduced at the market, sat on a bench and ate it like a bag of crisps or something 😀


Sidenote, got chatting to an ex royal marine sat next to me, amazing ink he's had over his scars from an IED which ended his service, he was same as me with his views about lazy bastards moaning lol

a reply to: TheShippingForecast

I've explained why I mentioned The Orkneys and Shetlands.
The fact is that here on ATS some members who support Scottish independence have previously stated they would deny The Northern Isles their own IndyRef if there was enough support for it.
Therefore their support for The Right to Self-Determination is selective....which was the only point I was trying to make.

You of course are adamant that you know my mind better than me and that there was some other scurrilous reason for it.
There isn't.
End of.

Yes, I think an independent Scotland would survive, and possibly even prosper.
I certainly wouldn't wish to see them struggle, why would I?
By truly independent I mean free fro the EU as well as the UK.
I can't see the point of an independent Scotland staying within the EU.....it would be a trivial insignificance to the Commissars in Brussels. (I guess some would say it is seen as such in the UK, but I disagree, most of us value of Scottish brethren.)
That would be a matter for the Scots to decide themselves.

But I passionately believe that we could effect greater positive change standing together, united.
Any total dissolution of The Union will make it harder for the ordinary, everyday people of all countries concerned.
Living in the North East we have a long history of interaction with Scotland, familial relations within the Border regions are very, very close.
The ties that bind are strong and run deep.

I genuinely believe we spend far too much time dwelling on our differences and not enough time celebrating all the things that unite us.
Naïve?
Maybe, but it is what it is.

I've had these discussions countless times.
I'm going to save any further discourse on the matter until IndyRef 2 is announced - I think its highly possible with BJ at the helm, which was how this discussion came about.
Maybe by then he will have pissed me off that much that I would have come to agree with you.