Trans-Gender Genital-Waxing Lawsuit Could Get Hairy

a reply to: burdman30ott6

No such thing. Penis = male, he, him... vagina = female, she, her. Period, no quarter asked, none given, the madness and pandering to mental illness must stop in this world or we're all going to be sharing in the caustic insanity of a discrete few in society.

Ok, so on the title story, I think this transwoman is in the wrong. Male genitalia is not the same as female genitalia. The beauticians are not in the wrong for not wanting to interact with genitalia they are not comfortable interacting with, they are fully within their rights there. Waxing each set is also a different skill, to the point where if you are familiar with one type, you are not clear to do the other type without study. These lawsuits are frivolous, and they are agenda-oriented.

On to your ideas here now. There is a distinction to be drawn between sex and gender. Sex is determined by chromosomes, and indicated by genitals at birth in 99% of cases, excluding cases such as intersex. A person who undergoes horomone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery still continues to be the same sex they were born. Gender is a different concept... it deals with social roles and norms, the expectations surrounding people of a certain sex, how they dress, how they are expected to think, etc.

I think it is worth considering that gender heavily correlates with sex and birth genitals, but isn't caused by them in an absolute sense. It is caused by a number of things, including sex horomones (which are generally heavily tied to sex, but can vary somewhat independently), culture and socialization from a young age, our interactions with others, and our thoughts about our own bodies and our place in society.

I would argue that focusing only on sex and not thinking of gender in terms of a person's identity is missing a big part of the picture. There are transpeople who were dysphoric from a young age, never underwent the puberty of the opposite gender from the one they identify with, went on HRT quite young, and to even discerning eyes look and sound like a perfect example of the gender they identify with. Due to their hormonal makeup and socialization based on their apperance, they also think like that gender to a large degree.

I am fine with dysphoria being called a mental illness. But currently the peer reviewed studies appear to be indicating that gender transitions are the preferred way to treat severe cases, and are producing good long term outcomes. These individuals continue to have a host of life-problems afterward, but still appear better off.

If he's targetting muslim businesses because he knows they won't wax him, eventually he's going to have a really, really bad day.

a reply to: joeraynor

That is all wonderful, but it doesn't cover what I am talking about. Clinical Lycanthropy is a mental disorder just as real as gender dysphoria, yet nobody in their right mind would argue that society should placate someone who believes they are a bear by giving them salmon, speaking to them as if they were a bear, and overall actively participating in their mental delusions. IN FACT, most people would view that type of pandering as being disrespectful and mocking of the mentally ill individual.

That's my point here... Johnny thinks he's a woman. Fine, live your life believing you're a woman, but Johnny does not have the right to expect the rest of society to lie to themselves and not only refer to him as a woman, but in a lot of these cases they demand you think of them as a woman, lying to yourself until you believe the lie. It's ridiculous.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I don't think the bear example is a fair comparison. No one is socialized as a bear in this society. There is no "bear" role in gender that someone can take up. But if gender (as opposed to sex) is understood to be a construct that is cultural and socialized, and individuals have their own predispositions, and relate to the cultural expectations of one rather than another gender, and prefer the mental headspace of one set of horomones over the other, why is it wrong for them to want to live their lives that way?

There are also intersex individuals who have a mixed anatomical condition, where they are not clearly one sex or the other, even on the level if karyotyping. In that situation, with an already ambiguous sex, gender is even more ambiguous.

I am not huge on post-modernism. I find it nihilistic, and not everything is in need of being deconstructed. But I think the concept of gender, and our cultural assumptions about it is definitely worth examining.

Double*

a reply to: joeraynor

OK, let's stick to a more direct comparison, then. The white woman who was president of the NAACP chapter a few years abck, she claimed she was black and said she knew she was black, despite being genetically 100% white. Race is as much a social construct as you're saying gender is, yet nobody flew to that woman's rescue. She was booted from the NAACP in shame and it is quite clear that one cannot enter a contract that involves race while openly lying on that contract, even if the person really, really believes they are a different race, without serious consequences. In other words, we're not looking to society to placate that mental illness and participate in the manifestation of it, so why should we push for that with trans people?

ETA: Rachel Dolezal

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

That's my point here... Johnny thinks he's a woman. Fine, live your life believing you're a woman, but Johnny does not have the right to expect the rest of society to lie to themselves and not only refer to him as a woman, but in a lot of these cases they demand you think of them as a woman.

Exactly ''

Be the lie.....Live the lie ..... but dont expect others to join in your charade.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

OK, let's stick to a more direct comparison, then. The white woman who was president of the NAACP chapter a few years abck, she claimed she was black and said she knew she was black, despite being genetically 100% white. Race is as much a social construct as you're saying gender is, yet nobody flew to that woman's rescue.

Still a bit different I'd say, despite sharing some similarities.

So with race, while the concept of a subsaharan "race", or an Italian "race" is cultural, there are also measurable genetic traits that correspond to it. Within the subsaharan region, you will find a much greater incidence of the genes that enable a person to be an olympic-class sprinter. You will find a much greater incidence of the predisposition for sickle-cell. The geographic bounds are arbitrary, but once you've defined them, you can make clear statistical statements about them that correspond to reality.

Expectations about gender I think are partially based on predispositions that the sex-horomones create, which are then rendered wider by culture.

Here is an example: Testosterone predisposes a person to gain muscle more easily. On average, women have 30% the upper body strength that men have. Now suppose that men and women also worked their upper bodies to equal levels. I think the difference would be much smaller... you'd probably see something like women having 60-70% as much upper body strength as men; their potential is still less, but they realize all of it. So we have a root physical fact, but then the actions of culture widens the gap. And this is probably an example where the potential of men and women differ the most. Another example is empathy. I think estrogen (and the absence of T) slightly predisposes a person to be slower to anger, and better at relating to others. But there are plenty of men out there who are far more compassionate then a typical woman, and that is because it is a trait that we have active control over, despite natural predispositions and cultural expectations.

But maybe someone wants to be an olympic sprinter, or be president of the NAACP. Are they mentally ill or delusional for wanting to change their genes? It is sort of moot because it isn't possible atm. Maybe it will be in the future, when genetic engineering has progressed further, and we will be having this convesation then. But it IS possible for a natal male to go on androgen blockers that completely stop the action of testosterone within their body and mind. And they can also take estrogen and progesterone and have the same chemical balance and resulting secondary sex characteristics as a natal female.

In both the case of the bear-wannabe and the theoretical Bolt-wannabe, there is no path to realize their goals. There is a path for the gender-confused or dysphoric, arguably. Gender is composed largely of traits that we have control over in various ways, and with the addition of horomone control, we have control over almost all of them. If a person has the traits culturally associated with the other gender, despite gender being constructed, perhaps it may help others to better recognize their personality if they present as that gender.

a reply to: joeraynor

Not so different.

With gender, there are still a large number of genetic traits that correspond as you mentioned above all set in stone by XX or XY with intersexed individuals being rare genetic aberrations that transpeople love to hide behind.

Transpeople will often have healthy male or female bodies with the correct chromosomes and claim they are the gender identity culturally/mentally that is in opposition to their physical reality and then do everything they can to impose that physical reality on their otherwise healthy body through drug therapy and surgical procedures as well as superficial cosmetic means.

But this is no different than individuals like Racheal Dolezal have done in trying to make their racial identity conform to their physical reality.

originally posted by: joeraynor

Here is an example: Testosterone predisposes a person to gain muscle more easily. On average, women have 30% the upper body strength that men have. Now suppose that men and women also worked their upper bodies to equal levels. I think the difference would be much smaller... you'd probably see something like women having 60-70% as much upper body strength as men; their potential is still less, but they realize all of it. So we have a root physical fact, but then the actions of culture widens the gap. And this is probably an example where the potential of men and women differ the most. Another example is empathy. I think estrogen (and the absence of T) slightly predisposes a person to be slower to anger, and better at relating to others. But there are plenty of men out there who are far more compassionate then a typical woman, and that is because it is a trait that we have active control over, despite natural predispositions and cultural expectations.

But maybe someone wants to be an olympic sprinter, or be president of the NAACP. Are they mentally ill or delusional for wanting to change their genes? It is sort of moot because it isn't possible atm. Maybe it will be in the future, when genetic engineering has progressed further, and we will be having this convesation then. But it IS possible for a natal male to go on androgen blockers that completely stop the action of testosterone within their body and mind. And they can also take estrogen and progesterone and have the same chemical balance and resulting secondary sex characteristics as a natal female.

None of any of ^^^^^ that ^^^^^ occurs naturally.......

It is plastic surgery intervention and manipulation that makes the changes?

a reply to: ketsuko

intersexed individuals being rare genetic aberrations that transpeople love to hide behind.

There are disagreements about exactly how common intersex individual are, based on what traits are admitted to that group. Some say they are as common as 2% of the population, others .05%, etc.

I agree though that the majority of transpeople who transition are not identifiably intersex in a way that is noted. I think the majority do it for unrelated reasons that are likely cultural. There have been arguments presented about brain structures that are more characteristic of one sex appearing in the other (a common one is the Amygdala and hypothalamus). Female patterns in these brain structures often present themselves in gay males. Very little research has been done linking these same structures to trans individuals, but it seems like a possibility.

There are also costs to transitioning. Blockers put stress on the liver. HRT in general stresses the kidneys. There are enough costs that it is worth examining the total picture. The medical establishment seems to be coming out in favor of transition at this time, however.

The cosmetic surgeries are largely justified by helping the individual blend in as the identified gender. A person can face great harrasment or violence if the majority of society percieves them to be the opposite gender playing a charade. Whether or not you think this is what they are actually doing, it does allow them more peace within society.

a reply to: eletheia

None of any of ^^^^^ that ^^^^^ occurs naturally.......

I think a male can be more empathetic than the average female for perfectly natural reasons. In some cases, gender traits are heavily dicated by the effects of sex horomones, in others the individal themselves has a much greater degree of control than their biology has over them.

a reply to: IAMTAT

I only read the first line and just laughed.

Really? This kind of crap is getting ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure most waxers are taught how to wax WOMEN with WOMEN parts not men who identify as women with man parts! So yea I wouldn't be waxing it either. I wouldn't care what you identified as. That is not the canvas I learned on!


This stuff is just ridiculous.

a reply to: mblahnikluver

but they are beautiful and brave.

a reply to: joeraynor

If you have to go through that degree of mental gymnastics to defend/vilify/vindicate/refute an issue, then you should probably take that as a good cue that you're position is not solidly grounded. The sex vs gender argument is only applicable until sex (organs, genetics, strengths, weaknesses, chemical differences, biological processes, brain wave patterns, natural hormonal variances, and chromosomes) enter the equation. In the OP's article, sex made an appearance in the form of genitals... that cannot be denied and, in the specific case of the OP's article, it renders the "but sex is different than gender" argument entirely moot.

As for the other portions of your argument, I disagree. We can sit here all day splitting hairs over various mental illness and disorders, picking and choosing which ones should be placated and which ones should not be placated, or we can take the very logical and very defensible position that mental illness is a personal matter and nobody has the right to demand others share in your hallucinations and mentally ill delusions or dysphoria beyond that which each individual is willing to voluntarily subject themselves to.

We're really, really damn close to seeing a news story from somewhere like Canada or the UK about a dude on Tinder getting sued for discrimination because he didn't have sex with the guy he matched with who was dolled up like a female. That's how far out in lala land this tiny percentage of the population suffering from mental health disorders have pushed society and, by God, there are apparently otherwise mentally healthy people championing them and letting us go down that ridiculous pathway... I don't get it.

Ugh. The more I read about this person, the worse it gets.

The person from this story may possibly be a sex predator. There are records of them sending very inappropriate messages to young girls, making comments about oggling women in changing spaces, taking pictures of women in the restroom, etc.

It strikes me that this is one of the people leveraging transgender status for the worst possible motives.

I don't think this behavior is representative of the trans community at all, but it appears this is indeed one of the worst examples, of the kind that really gives that group of people a black eye.

a reply to: joeraynor

Yup, a filthy pig. One would hope the community cannot get enough distance between them and this person, now that the truth has come out.

It's worse than waxing.

a reply to: IAMTAT

All of this won't end well. If "the courts" and other world government/bodies whom want to pass this IDIOCY by forcing the rest of the population to have to kowtow to the belief of a small percentage of the population that have mental problems, people will explode. You will get more attacks on transgenders who try to do what this ahole tried to do. Fathers will seek vengeance when their daughters have to submit to the trans agenda. It won't be everyone, but a lot of people will. What father/mother wants to see her daughter having to watch without her permission a trans with his organs in plain view and for their daughters to have to deal with perverts that the left have been defending like this ahole?




The "bathroom/trans agenda" is nothing more than a push to forcefully make people compliant to
the mental health problems that so many trans have. IT IS A MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEM, IT IS IN THEIR HEAD. After this the push will be to make pedophilia legal, which many left-wing groups want and have been trying to do. The Obama administration opened the door to this by puting in charge of education of American kids someone who sees a pedophile as an idol, and his own group explains pretty much they want to teach children and adults to have sex together...

Someone wake me up from this freaking nightmare...