Some sense on the abortion issue

originally posted by: Graysen

originally posted by: hypervalentiodine


Adoption is literally discussed on their website. www.plannedparenthood.org...

They perform 82 abortions for every adoption. It's safe to say they are not in the adoption business.

Sounds like some of their clients choose adoption IN SPITE OF the counseling, not because of it.

They are in the family planning and women’s health business. As far as I know, and based on their website, they present both options and do not discriminate either way. However, you are shifting the goal posts. You claimed they NEVER EVER advocate for adoption. I showed that they do. They aren’t an adoption agency, so I don’t know why you expect parity in those numbers. How absurd.

What kind of say? Final say?
a reply to: Sookiechacha
The final as in whether a child is born or not? It takes two to create life.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: eletheia
a reply to: network dude



I feel uneasy with the abortion issue in that it is always a majority of men

making the laws concerning abortion and men don't get abortions.......

Uh, both men and women began their lives as fetuses... so it's kind of a big deal for both sexes to have a voice protecting them.

In recent weeks Oklahoma courts have decided a teen woman's rapist is allowed to over rule her decision on whether to get an abortion or not, how much more say do guys need than the right to rape women and force them to give birth against their will?

Meanwhile in Alabama women are in court fighting to stop losing custody of their children to their rapists, a current one is a girl who was raped by her uncle when she was 15 and he's wanting custody.

originally posted by: JON666
What kind of say? Final say?
a reply to: Sookiechacha
The final as in whether a child is born or not? It takes two to create life.

Unless it's a rape, it should take both to terminate that life. It should be illegal to have an abortion just because you want to keep a social life. Bring back personal responsibility.

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: eletheia
Until the man has a say in what he helped to make then there really is no discussion on the matter.

He needs to have stayed around if he wants a say in the matter.........

Sadly most of them have never hung around long enough to be part of that descision!

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: hypervalentiodine
Here is the problem if you get pregnant by a male, if he wants to keep the baby you can say no if he does not want to keep the child he has no say but must pay child support on the child. So tell me how its fair?

Well in the same way as women are constantly told *they should have kept their

legs crossed* ........

A man should keep his wand *in his pants* if he doesnt want to contribute to the

support of his progeny.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

The decision to abort is the woman's domain. It seems the men involved are rarely even consulted for their opinion or feelings on the matter. Imagine the horror of a man trying to tell a woman who has decided to abort that he wants the child. How can he possibly expect her to endure nine months of carrying and excruciating labor, just because he wants her too?

Surely those things should be discussed before copulation?

So that each know where they stand?

But the reverse of that situation is, for some reason, a no-brainer. If she decides to have the child the man is on the hook for no less than 18 years of support. He can be jailed for failure to pay. He will be blamed for the child's antisocial behavior for being an absent father - and he has no say in the matter whatsoever.

Well he did provide the other half of the DNA? so he surely has some responsibility?

It seems to me that fathers are nothing more than sperm donors. Until something happens or there are bills to pay, then it's their problem. Men have feelings too. Our love for our children is just as strong as their mother's. We should have an opinion, we should be asked, and we should honor that responsibility.

^^^^^ Does that make women no more than incubators?

a reply to: network dude

It's the only thing we can agree that we all do well

Nope... I didnt screw up with this issue and millions of others havent either.... it is the irresponsible impulsive people that screw up! If it was upto me, abortion would be illegal no matter the consequence, then you will see humanity changing its monkey-like behaviour for the better! But hey, monkeys need freedom right?

originally posted by: JON666
What kind of say? Final say?
a reply to: Sookiechacha
The final as in whether a child is born or not? It takes two to create life.

You think that "you" should have a choice, not "her"? It's your choice, not hers?

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

originally posted by: JON666
What kind of say? Final say?
a reply to: Sookiechacha
The final as in whether a child is born or not? It takes two to create life.

You think that "you" should have a choice, not "her"? It's your choice, not hers?

but if HE is responsible for the child after birth, (child support), then why does he get no say in the decision? I don't have an answer here, but this question needs to be asked, and factored in.

a reply to: dawnstar

I believe one of the top five reasons given is that it was what the father wanted. I do not believe that is the case, however. I think that is, at least sometimes, an emotional safety valve being used by the mother.

Your equation demonstrates your point but I think it fails to address the larger aspect of the father's rights. Yes, there is a huge financial burden on the father, but his part in the child's life is much more than just financial support. It is no secret that many law firms are making big money defending father's rights in court. The fact that these firms even need to exist is proof of my point.

In a typical case of unwanted pregnancy, one party is no more to blame than the other. If the woman decides she doesn't want the child the man is pretty much done talking. He can continue if he wants to but his words have no meaning at that point. And the reverse is also true. If he wants the child and the mother doesn't, well, too bad. But after the child is borne the father is as much responsible for it as the mother, financially, emotionally, spiritually, etc.

I think it should be up to the individuals. If the mother can look me in the eye and say my feelings on the subject are meaningless, then she should agree that I am no longer part of this equation. Not now, or for the next 18 years. If she insists on making the decision without my input she can raise the child without my input as well.

If I want the child and she decides she doesn't, where is my compensation for what I have lost? My child has been taken from me. I will never know the joy of seeing that child grow and live its life. Where is the justice in that equation? It is unbalanced unless some remuneration to the father is introduced.

a reply to: [post=24431625]Sookiechacha[/post

It wont make much difference within the next 20 years or so. The whole abortion debate will be null and void. by then.

Most late-term abortions (of which there are not that many) are performed before 24 weeks, and it's usually because the person didn't know they were pregnant, couldn't afford the procedure, had trouble finding somewhere to get it done, etc. a reply to: hypervalentiodine

Is that why in Kansas tiller was doing third trimester abortions? He had a booming business terminating third trimester babies. So to say it is rare is not true.

originally posted by: bastion

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: eletheia
a reply to: network dude



I feel uneasy with the abortion issue in that it is always a majority of men

making the laws concerning abortion and men don't get abortions.......

Uh, both men and women began their lives as fetuses... so it's kind of a big deal for both sexes to have a voice protecting them.

In recent weeks Oklahoma courts have decided a teen woman's rapist is allowed to over rule her decision on whether to get an abortion or not, how much more say do guys need than the right to rape women and force them to give birth against their will?

Meanwhile in Alabama women are in court fighting to stop losing custody of their children to their rapists, a current one is a girl who was raped by her uncle when she was 15 and he's wanting custody.

Trying to manipulate the conversation towards those extreme outliers, which the vast majority of pro-life supporters also find horrifying and wrong, is as disingenuous as me trying to paint all pro choice people with the left's extremist "legal post birth abortion" because a handful of raging asshole sociopaths within the lawmakers in New York and Virginia supported that ideology. Remember, I'm one of the folks here who has said, multiple times, that convicted rapists should be taken to the town square, be publicly castrated and then shot in the head. I fully support the idea of the death penalty for rapists and child molesters.

originally posted by: network dude

but if HE is responsible for the child after birth, (child support), then why does he get no say in the decision? I don't have an answer here, but this question needs to be asked, and factored in.

I know a fair few women who have had abortions, and the common denominating

factor in ALL cases was the man *was no longer around*

The financial and emotional burden plus the bringing up of a child for 18 years was

too much to contemplate doing on their own.

This alone leads me to think, all these *bleeding hearts* men are little interested

in where they plant their seed!! otherwise they would be there to make sure ......


But hey why spoil a good gripe at all those loose women who make a hobby of

abortions.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

originally posted by: JON666
What kind of say? Final say?
a reply to: Sookiechacha
The final as in whether a child is born or not? It takes two to create life.

You think that "you" should have a choice, not "her"? It's your choice, not hers?

but if HE is responsible for the child after birth, (child support), then why does he get no say in the decision? I don't have an answer here, but this question needs to be asked, and factored in.

I'm just asking, "What kinda say?" Relationships can be complicated. I do agree that men should be able to legally opt out of paternity. But I think that's a completely different set of issues, and that pulling the protections that Roe V Wade provides is counterproductive to men's issues too.

originally posted by: Echo007
Unless it's a rape, it should take both to terminate that life.

Um. I would only agree to that if the man financially and emotionally supported the child for its life. Of course there is no guarantee of that, so let's just boil it down to a woman's choice, because at the end of the day it is the woman who has to contend with the consequences of a child. Now, that woman's choice should be closely regulated, with checks and balances.

Abortion "on demand" is so American, and so wrong. There are some really good examples where the rights of the unborn child and the woman are protected. Balanced nations deal with abortion in a balanced way. I am comfortable with the rules in England, for example.

Well in the same way as women are constantly told *they should have kept their

legs crossed* ........

A man should keep his wand *in his pants* if he doesnt want to contribute to the

support of his progeny.

a reply to: eletheia

I agree keep it in the pants and keep the legs closed. My point was when the man wants to keep the child and support it for life he has no say if the child will ever see the light of day.

originally posted by: JON666
Most late-term abortions (of which there are not that many) are performed before 24 weeks, and it's usually because the person didn't know they were pregnant, couldn't afford the procedure, had trouble finding somewhere to get it done, etc. a reply to: hypervalentiodine

Is that why in Kansas tiller was doing third trimester abortions? He had a booming business terminating third trimester babies. So to say it is rare is not true.

And yet, all the statistics and research say that it is extremely rare.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

originally posted by: JON666
What kind of say? Final say?
a reply to: Sookiechacha
The final as in whether a child is born or not? It takes two to create life.

You think that "you" should have a choice, not "her"? It's your choice, not hers?

but if HE is responsible for the child after birth, (child support), then why does he get no say in the decision? I don't have an answer here, but this question needs to be asked, and factored in.

I am completely against the idea that anyone but the pregnant woman should get a say in whether or not she carries to term or gets an abortion. It is a huge health burden and has massive consequences for her physical and mental wellbeing in either direction, not anyone else. However, even if we put that aside, how would it even work? If the two people are at odds, who would get the final say?