Trying to resolve 9/11

The temperatures reached, whether or not chips, and microscopic spheres were present, or so forth -

Avoid the real issue, real problem, and people like Steven Jones, while appearing to support truth, and facts, and reality....
are shaping the debate into trivial issues, where nothing can ever be proven.


I once thought these issues were relevant, and experts like Jones were on the right track, holding up chips, and microspheres. as proof that these collapses were CD's, using thermite, or some variation of thermite...


All that matters is - a structure cannot collapse through itself, and never will. It is impossible. Physics proves it is impossible. It is not possible to replicate such a collapse, in any way.

This is an absolute fact, and it is the only fact that matters.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

He wrote that a a Gas Vapor release appeared in the DSC test and that maybe result of lighting the Carbon matrix

Boiling point of carbon is 4200 C, so how could “ lighting the Carbon matrix“ make vapor?

You said the chips only got to 1500 C?

Is that like a paper fire turning iron and iron oxide particles with sufficient surface area to material to iron microspheres?

Like I informed you, the red layer primarily contains particles of Nano Aluminum, Carbon, Oxygen, Nano Silicon, and Nano Iron oxide.
 The standard Thermite mixture is just iron oxide and aluminum powder. 
The red/gray chips have an organic structure base of diverse layers. There two different layers to chips, they're a red surface and gray surface. 
Harrit did find very small- really low levels of potassium, Lead, Sulphur, barium, and copper in the red and gray layer chips.
The spikes are not high as the other separates in the XEDs
Still the Sulfur and Barium interesting as you need these ingredients to make thermate and diminish the melting point of steel and Iron.

Harrit speculated in his paper the carbon and extra chemical elements maybe reacting in the DSC with the primary nano-thermite mixture. I realize more tests will need to presented to iron out the energy release issue. 
Harrit said in his paper the gray layer is not alike, they're not exact proportions across all four chips. Some chips have more gray layers than others. 
Harrit was persuaded the red/gray chips are Nano-thermite because Iron Oxide is too in Nano grain form - 100nm. It just not just AI that Nano-proportioned. 

The key reason it was Nano-thermite, a chemical reaction occurred at remarkably low temp of 430c in the DSC, and white-hot flame above 1500c or higher emerged from the chip. They then saw the Iron molten spheres on the red/gray burned chip. 
They coordinated their data to an independent test carried out by Lab ( i believe it was Livermore national labs) and their chemical reaction of Nano-thermite occurred in the same ballpark of 400c to 500c.  Standard thermite ignites roughly above 1000c typically or higher.
Carbon can ignite and burn at around 600 to 700c. Yes, some Carbons may take longer.  Remember though the carbon is not segregated here, it inserted in the chip with other reactive chemicals that may have purposely caused it to burn up faster. 

originally posted by: turbonium1
The temperatures reached, whether or not chips, and microscopic spheres were present, or so forth -

Avoid the real issue, real problem, and people like Steven Jones, while appearing to support truth, and facts, and reality....
are shaping the debate into trivial issues, where nothing can ever be proven.


I once thought these issues were relevant, and experts like Jones were on the right track, holding up chips, and microspheres. as proof that these collapses were CD's, using thermite, or some variation of thermite...


All that matters is - a structure cannot collapse through itself, and never will. It is impossible. Physics proves it is impossible. It is not possible to replicate such a collapse, in any way.

This is an absolute fact, and it is the only fact that matters.

Nanothermite would induce it. 
Jones and others are not claiming nanothermite is the alone option. They are susceptible to some form of explosive was adopted too.
They just finding material in the dust that should not be there!
I discovered a paper about nanothermite that insists they noticed a pressure wave after ignition. That was four time higher than TNT. 
It obvious as day there was pressure like explosion on top floors, that burst it open.  
aip.scitation.org...

originally posted by: turbonium1

All that matters is - a structure cannot collapse through itself, and never will. It is impossible. Physics proves it is impossible. It is not possible to replicate such a collapse, in any way.

There are a lot of papers written about something you say doesn't exist.



www.google.com...



Your opinion doesn't matter, never will, because you are wrong.

a reply to: Pilgrum

Gave up so easily. Uncanny for a debunker to tie this knot so fast. To understand the whole stuctural system involved for both towers 1 and 2, hard data needs to be known, not "some rough figures you recall."

originally posted by: Hulseyreport

He wrote that a a Gas Vapor release appeared in the DSC test and that maybe result of lighting the Carbon matrix

The carbon matrix is the epoxy binder in the paint formula. The carbon and hydrogen chain in the epoxy matrix of the paint broke down and ignited with the oxygen in the atmosphere. You see the paint chip puff up, that's the carbon and hydrogen turning to gas. The gas escapes and ignites. What you are looking at here is a hydro/carbon fire. No thermite.

Like I informed you, the red layer primarily contains particles of Nano Aluminum, Carbon, Oxygen, Nano Silicon, and Nano Iron oxide.

That is the same formula for Lcede standard joist paint.

Carbon can ignite and burn at around 600 to 700c. Yes, some Carbons may take longer.

I don't think you know what carbon is.

A diamond is carbon.
Coal is carbon.
Wood is carbon.
Paper is carbon.
Epoxy is carbon.
Gasoline is carbon.
Natural gas is carbon.
Trees are carbon.
Dogs and cats are carbon.
Moose and squirrel are carbon.
You are carbon.
I am carbon.
Sugar is carbon.
Milky bar is carbon.
You breath out carbon.
Carbon graphite is carbon.
Carbon is intertwined into all most everything.

originally posted by: Hulseyreport

Harrit chips were analyzed in inert atmosphere.

Prove it.

a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

Like I informed you, the red layer primarily contains particles of Nano Aluminum, Carbon, Oxygen, Nano Silicon, and Nano Iron oxide

Really. Quote from the study what size the aluminum particles were. Where in the study does it specifically state the size of the aluminum particles. A “scientific” study that leaves you speculating the size of the particles with hoping the little scale bars are the right size? I guess if the study doesn’t state a specific size, it can’t technically state a falsehood.

a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

Like I informed you, the red layer primarily contains particles of Nano Aluminum, Carbon, Oxygen, Nano Silicon, and Nano Iron oxide.

Which chip?

www.internationalskeptics.com...

They claim to have found elemental Aluminium, one key ingredient to thermite, in a fifth chip. However, this fifth chip is of a different material than the four others, as is proven by their own data presented in figures 6 and 14. They did NOT dind free aluminium in any of the material that they igited and claimed to be or contain thermite
They compared the exothermic behaviour of their 4 ignition samples with that of real (nano-?) thermite found in literature, and claimed that the graphs are very similar. They are not: Compare figure 19 with figure 29 and note how the position of the peak differs significantly both on the X-axis (by more than 100°C) and the Y-axis (by a factor of 2 to 4.5). This result proves that their samples are not the kind of thermite known to science. (Note too how in figure 29 they only repeat the lowest of the 4 peaks from fig. 19 to make it not quite so apparent that their samples released waaay too much energy/power.)
Sunstealer has identified in insightful posts back in april 2009 that the crystaline structures we see in figures 8-10 resemble kaolinite (aluminiumsilicate) and hematite (iron oxide, Fe2O3)

The chips burned by Harrit didn’t have free aluminum. Harrit never burnt thermite to start with. Let that sink in.....

originally posted by: waypastvne

originally posted by: Hulseyreport

Harrit chips were analyzed in inert atmosphere.

Prove it.

Another Hulseyreport blatant falsehood?

Harrit chips were analyzed in inert atmosphere.

a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

The key reason it was Nano-thermite, a chemical reaction occurred at remarkably low temp of 430c in the DSC, and white-hot flame above 1500c or

You understand that 2Al + Fe2O3 burns at 2862 degrees Celsius? And doesn’t ignite at 430 degrees Celsius. Please cite a source on what temperatures and circumstances “super” thermite will ignite under?

And doesn’t “supper” thermite explode more that burn? So the gas release from Harrit’s/Jones’s sample was from a carbon matrix?

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Oxygen balanced iron thermite 2Al + Fe2O3 has theoretical maximum density of 4.175 g/cm3 an adiabatic burn temperature of 3135 K or 2862°C or 5183°F

Snip

Ignition of a thermite reaction normally requires a sparkler or easily obtainable magnesium ribbon, but may require persistent efforts, as ignition can be unreliable and unpredictable. These temperatures cannot be reached with conventional black powder fuses, nitrocellulose rods, detonators, pyrotechnic initiators, or other common igniting substances.[14] Even when the thermite is hot enough to glow bright red, it doesn't ignite,

a reply to: Hulseyreport

So? HArrit / Jones wanted to find thermite. Their samples don’t burn like thermite. So they claim the samples burn like “super” thermite which is supposed to act like an explosive without citing what conditions/temperatures super thermite ignites under. While never actually stating the size of the aluminum particles in the one sample they claimed they found free Al2 by assuming. With finding no free Al2 in the samples they did burn?

And you claim they burned the chips in an inert atmosphere? But cannot cite where they actually did so?

originally posted by: waypastvne

originally posted by: Hulseyreport

He wrote that a a Gas Vapor release appeared in the DSC test and that maybe result of lighting the Carbon matrix

The carbon matrix is the epoxy binder in the paint formula. The carbon and hydrogen chain in the epoxy matrix of the paint broke down and ignited with the oxygen in the atmosphere. You see the paint chip puff up, that's the carbon and hydrogen turning to gas. The gas escapes and ignites. What you are looking at here is a hydro/carbon fire. No thermite.

Like I informed you, the red layer primarily contains particles of Nano Aluminum, Carbon, Oxygen, Nano Silicon, and Nano Iron oxide.

That is the same formula for Lcede standard joist paint.

Carbon can ignite and burn at around 600 to 700c. Yes, some Carbons may take longer.

I don't think you know what carbon is.

A diamond is carbon.
Coal is carbon.
Wood is carbon.
Paper is carbon.
Epoxy is carbon.
Gasoline is carbon.
Natural gas is carbon.
Trees are carbon.
Dogs and cats are carbon.
Moose and squirrel are carbon.
You are carbon.
I am carbon.
Sugar is carbon.
Milky bar is carbon.
You breath out carbon.
Carbon graphite is carbon.
Carbon is intertwined into all most everything.

Again its embarrasing the debunkers said they were going to repeat the Harrit Red/gray study and later they find out their expert only covered half the tests! 
While the DSC test would not disclose the chemical arrangement of chips, it will no doubt have identified Dr Milette chips are the same as Harrit and Jones chips!
There hard scientific experimental evidence a chemical reaction took place and Iron spheres were produced on burned chip red/gray chip.

If Milette found  Iron spheres on the burned chip, then Harrit nanothermite explantation would have to be reviewed also. Since Milette XEDS does show a unique chemical composition for his paint chips.
If you going to maintain the red/gray chips are Leclede paint. Then you need to summarize how Aluminum oxide + Iron oxide created Iron molten spheres when burned to 430c? From reviewing the Harrit study Silicon rich spheres also appeared. You have no argument if Mclede paint fails to burn at 430c and create Iron spheres. 

I have no disagreement with your stance carbon is present ( so perhaps hydrogen present likewise there in low values) another dispute is Milette found no tracks of sulphar, barium, lead, potassium in his paint chips! 
  Milette claims their titanium in his paint chips that Harrit never found. I believe the paint chips he tested also missing the strontium chromate ( a clear problem to identify the chips he had are Leclede paint)

Dr Milette study he claimed burned the paint chips to 400c ( not in DSC) and the paint chips he had turned to ash. Another issue Debunkers overlook. 
I don't dispute organic substance ( matrix) burned up also ( Harrit even declared himself that took place) it one of the reasons he offered to justify the unusual energy distributions of the chips in the DSC.  However saying it just carbon/hydrogen-burning ignores Harrit identified many chemical elements inserted in the red/gray chips. They're no disagreement from me there was a gas discharge and the existence of carbon and other elements is a good rational explantation for this. Nanothermite mixture was likewise identified.  

All research that you meet online about nanothermite the claimant's identify Nano thermite material when burned, there a higher energy output matched to conventional thermite. Reaction times and strength are going to be stronger when using nanothermite.  Even a mainstream paper about nanothermite claims they discovered a pressure wave (a shock wave) that was four times greater than TNT. Like I said nanothermite with the organic material burned is the best explanation for the energy release differences.

 Debunkers may have missed this important fact from Figure 17 ( Harrit study) The Aluminum is higher than the Silicon and Oxygen content. That information the AI is elemental. The AI and Silicon should be comparable before burning since its bonded Kaolin according to Dr Milette tests.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

Like I informed you, the red layer primarily contains particles of Nano Aluminum, Carbon, Oxygen, Nano Silicon, and Nano Iron oxide

Really. Quote from the study what size the aluminum particles were. Where in the study does it specifically state the size of the aluminum particles. A “scientific” study that leaves you speculating the size of the particles with hoping the little scale bars are the right size? I guess if the study doesn’t state a specific size, it can’t technically state a falsehood.

It discussed often in the Harrit study. I posted one quote to highlight this already previously. NM is the symbol for Nano.


Open the study read, you'll find many references to the size of particles in the red/gray chips.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

The key reason it was Nano-thermite, a chemical reaction occurred at remarkably low temp of 430c in the DSC, and white-hot flame above 1500c or

You understand that 2Al + Fe2O3 burns at 2862 degrees Celsius? And doesn’t ignite at 430 degrees Celsius. Please cite a source on what temperatures and circumstances “super” thermite will ignite under?

And doesn’t “supper” thermite explode more that burn? So the gas release from Harrit’s/Jones’s sample was from a carbon matrix?

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Oxygen balanced iron thermite 2Al + Fe2O3 has theoretical maximum density of 4.175 g/cm3 an adiabatic burn temperature of 3135 K or 2862°C or 5183°F

Snip

Ignition of a thermite reaction normally requires a sparkler or easily obtainable magnesium ribbon, but may require persistent efforts, as ignition can be unreliable and unpredictable. These temperatures cannot be reached with conventional black powder fuses, nitrocellulose rods, detonators, pyrotechnic initiators, or other common igniting substances.[14] Even when the thermite is hot enough to glow bright red, it doesn't ignite,

We have a test to compare it with. Their Nano-thermite composite gel ignited just above 500c. Red/chips are much closer to the nano thermite- burning and ignition.

a reply to: Hulseyreport

So? What is the composition of nano thermite gel? Is it aluminum iron oxide thermite? And what does the gel do?

Funny you didn’t include the figure number?

www.internationalskeptics.com...

They compared the exothermic behaviour of their 4 ignition samples with that of real (nano-?) thermite found in literature, and claimed that the graphs are very similar. They are not: Compare figure 19 with figure 29 and note how the position of the peak differs significantly both on the X-axis (by more than 100°C) and the Y-axis (by a factor of 2 to 4.5). This result proves that their samples are not the kind of thermite known to science.

a reply to: Hulseyreport

Most studies would state this is the smallest particle size found, this was the largest particle size found, this is the average particle size found.

Funny you cannot quote from the study a stated size of the suppose aluminum particles? A study that leaves you guessing?

a reply to: Hulseyreport

Did you answer

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Hulseyreport

You

Like I informed you, the red layer primarily contains particles of Nano Aluminum, Carbon, Oxygen, Nano Silicon, and Nano Iron oxide.

Which chip?

www.internationalskeptics.com...

They claim to have found elemental Aluminium, one key ingredient to thermite, in a fifth chip. However, this fifth chip is of a different material than the four others, as is proven by their own data presented in figures 6 and 14. They did NOT dind free aluminium in any of the material that they igited and claimed to be or contain thermite
They compared the exothermic behaviour of their 4 ignition samples with that of real (nano-?) thermite found in literature, and claimed that the graphs are very similar. They are not: Compare figure 19 with figure 29 and note how the position of the peak differs significantly both on the X-axis (by more than 100°C) and the Y-axis (by a factor of 2 to 4.5). This result proves that their samples are not the kind of thermite known to science. (Note too how in figure 29 they only repeat the lowest of the 4 peaks from fig. 19 to make it not quite so apparent that their samples released waaay too much energy/power.)
Sunstealer has identified in insightful posts back in april 2009 that the crystaline structures we see in figures 8-10 resemble kaolinite (aluminiumsilicate) and hematite (iron oxide, Fe2O3)

The chips burned by Harrit didn’t have free aluminum. Harrit never burnt thermite to start with. Let that sink in.....

a reply to: Hulseyreport

Again

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: waypastvne

originally posted by: Hulseyreport

Harrit chips were analyzed in inert atmosphere.

Prove it.

Another Hulseyreport blatant falsehood?

Harrit chips were analyzed in inert atmosphere.

I just covered this can you read?
That quote is straight from the Harrit paper.
100nm is Nano- He shows the Iron oxide is 100nm plus the AI. 
That you don't recognize it not my problem.
Steve Jones told people online they checked the chips in the air, inert atmosphere. That's how they could confirm energy levels between the Tilliston nanothermite gel and their red/gray chips! While they're not informed, clear discussion in the Harrit paper, the chemists who are co-authors of the Harrit study verified this. This inert discussion only came up after the dropped the research. 
Jones even announced they did experiments at BYU and made themselves homemade Nano-thermite, not the red/gray chips and could not get it to ignite in an an inert atmosphere at low temps. The organic blend of the red/ gray layers seems to be essential for to ignite at a low temp of 430c.
Who the hell make paint with Nano Iron oxide and Nano Aluminum?
I have not studied Tilliston entire work, you have to sign up to a site to download the paper. It's obviously their gel must contain nanoparticles of AI and Iron oxide to be called nano-thermite. 
This utterly false after the MEK soak, they produced an XED check of the red/gray chip. And found the free elemental Aluminum. You just don't understand this graph I posted, and I would not be surprised if 9/11 debunkers did not even recognize this in Harrit's study?

I post this caption, that 100 percent takes apart the theory that the red/gray chips had no elemental AI.