Trying to resolve 9/11

a reply to: democracydemo

You

No Neutron. Since YOU support this theory YOU bare this.

What theory do I support.

I see no evidence the structure was cut by planted explosives.



I just see the reality of the video evidence.

a reply to: neutronflux

Seismic? I'm addressing air sound waves.

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

Seismic? I'm addressing air sound waves.

And the source that would make air waves would make seismic waves. But there is no evidence in the frequencies and wave types in the seismic date to indicate explosives.

The seismic data is more comprehensive than just sound waves. With no indication there was explosions resulting in atmospheric over pressure events indicative of explosives with the force to cut steel columns.

a reply to: democracydemo

Sound travels in solids and liquids too

Sound waves travel faster and more effectively in liquids than in air and travel even more effectively in solids. This concept is particularly hard to believe since our general experiences lead us to hear reduced or garbled sounds in water or behind a solid door. There are reasons for this. Most of our everyday experiences are when a sound travels first through air and then through water or a solid. When the sound wave transfers from air into a solid some of it is reflected back into the air and some may be absorbed by the new medium. The noise coming from a room will be reduced if an observer outside closes the door. Sound from within the room will travel to the closed door and start it vibrating. The vibrating door will set the air on the outside vibrating too and a little of the original sound will be transmitted to the observer. However, some of the sound arriving at the door will have been reflected back into the room (actually making the noise inside the room louder!). Also some of the sound energy will have been used up in making the door begin to vibrate so we can say some of the sound has been absorbed by the door.

www.le.ac.uk...

originally posted by: neutronflux
You mean like the first jet traveling at high speed heard for several seconds before hitting the first tower.

You're making my point. If the first plane is heard seconds before hitting the tower, then we'd hear the second plane before it hit the other tower, right? But we don't.

How do you possibly explain that?

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: neutronflux
You mean like the first jet traveling at high speed heard for several seconds before hitting the first tower.

You're making my point. If the first plane is heard seconds before hitting the tower, then we'd hear the second plane before it hit the other tower, right? But we don't.

How do you possibly explain that?

No. I am not making your point.

The actual context of my full post.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: turbonium1

Planes cannot go through buildings like this.

Yes they can.

The Jets that hit the towers had around 10,000 pounds of fuel. With large amounts of fuel in the wing tanks.

If you don’t think a 68,000 pound slug of fuel traveling over 400 mph can take out building structures, then you are clueless about physics.


Then you have the landing gear, wing bases, and engines that are made out of more durable alloys than the skin of the jet.

A B-25 bomber weighing 25,000 pounds, and flying 200 mph punched a hole through the Empire State Building. Vs a 767 flying over 400 mph and weighing over 200,000 lbs hitting a building cheaply clad.

When an Army Plane Crashed Into the Empire State Building

time.com...

“The bomber gored through the thick steel and stone of the building as if they were papier-mâché,” TIME reported.

Plane crashes into Empire State Building

www.history.com...


One engine from the plane went straight through the building and landed in a penthouse apartment across the street. Other plane parts ended up embedded in and on top of nearby buildings. The other engine snapped an elevator cable while at least one woman was riding in the elevator car. The emergency auto brake saved the woman from crashing to the bottom, but the engine fell down the shaft and landed on top of it. Quick-thinking rescuers pulled the woman from the elevator, saving her life.

1945 Empire State Building B-25 crash


en.m.wikipedia.org...

At 9:40 a.m., the aircraft crashed into the north side of the Empire State Building, between the 78th and 80th floors, making an 18-by-20-foot (5.5 m × 6.1 m) hole in the building[7] into the offices of the War Relief Society and the National Catholic Welfare Council. One engine shot through the south side opposite the impact and flew as far as the next block, dropping 900 feet (270 m) and landing on the roof of a nearby building and causing a fire that destroyed a penthouse art studio. The other engine and part of the landing gear fell down an elevator shaft. The resulting fire was extinguished in 40 minutes. The Empire State Building fire is the only significant fire at such a height[vague] to be brought under control by firefighters.[7]

Plane crashes into apartment building

www.history.com...

A cargo plane crashes into an apartment building near an airport in Amsterdam, Holland, on October 4, 1992. Four people aboard the plane and approximately 100 more in the apartment building lost their lives in the disaster.

Pictures from crash

El Al flight 1862
aviation-safety.net...

Simulation of WTC impact

Scientists simulate jet colliding with World Trade Center

m.youtube.com...

The bridge thing? Your comparing hitting a solid reinforced concrete structure vs a building that is over 95 percent hollow. Buildings built cheap as possible, and built to maximize open rental space.


Might like to compare the aircraft, speeds, angle of impacts between the WTC and what ever bridge you are referring too.


Next post


originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: turbonium1

Another example of passenger planes destroying buildings

When a TWA and United planes collided above New York City, crashed in Brooklyn and Staten Island leaving rubble and human remains in their wake

www.nydailynews.com...

In Brooklyn, where the frightening crash of the jet demolished a church, wrecked 11 other buildings and touched off a seven-alarm fire, six persons died on the street, in buildings and in a flaming auto.

Park Slope’s ‘60 horror

nypost.com...

The nose of the craft sliced open the walls of the Pillar of Fire Church and killed the caretaker.

a reply to: turbonium1

Sorry. The actual post I was referring to. The one you took out of context

Blatant lie by you.

Explaining the 9/11 Murray St Engine from Flight 175 (N612UA) that hit WTC2

www.metabunk.org...

When United Flight 175 hit World Trade Center Tower 2 on 9/11 some large parts of it passed through the building and landed in the streets to the north. One of these was a badly damaged core part of an engine. This landed at the intersection of Murray st and Church St.

More parts here

9/11 Aircraft Parts and Contents Recovered in NYC
sites.google.com...

"I'm on West Street, right out of the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. And I was driving in, and I heard an enormous explosion. Then I heard another enormous explosion, and it scared me. I looked out the window, and an enormous tire, what appeared to be a tire, smashed down on the street in front of me. And I looked out, and there was an enormous amount of debris, and we were two or three or four blocks down from the World Trade Center. This is the northern building in the World Trade Center. I yelled to the gentleman in the car, 'Let me out.' I ran back, and a gentleman next to me had been hit by debris." George Shea, live on the telephone with NY1 news

If they were real planes, people would have seen and heard them miles out, not the moment before supposedly 'hitting' the towers! Think about it. How would two large commercial planes go completely unnoticed, unseen, unheard, for miles and miles above one of the most populated cities in the world, if they were real planes? Not a chance!

You mean like the first jet traveling at high speed heard for several seconds before hitting the first tower.

Naudet brothers 9/11 Documentary - 1st plane hits North Tower

m.youtube.com...

A jet traveling at 400 mph will travel 6.6 miles in a minute.

A jet traveling at 50 mph will travel 8.4 miles in a minute.


You

For me, the best evidence they were not real planes is the videos. Going over the videos, frame by frame, shows the plane 'sink' into the tower, leave no damage, no hole, as if it was a 'phantom' plane, a 'ghost' plane, which cannot happen, if it was a real plane!

No. I know they are really jets that hit the towers because... again...

What caused the outside inward damage. The fire ball equivalent of 10,000 gallons of jet fuel. There wasn’t explosives strapped to the ousted of the building and not 180 fifty five gallon drums full of jet fuel to simulate the fire ball. The damage was too large for a non exploding missile used as a kinetic weapon. The damage inconsistent for a explosion middle or missiles. Jet wrecked found in the street after the impacts. Recovered jet wreckage. Multiple people saw and attest to jets hitting the twin towers. The jet Impact videos from multiple angles. The sound heard / in the videos. Passenger / crew / hijacker DNA-remains recovered from WTC pile. Families had people aboard flight 11 and 175 that did not return home.

One should question. Only the biased or total idiots conclude jets did not hit the twin towers

a reply to: turbonium1

Just you, your misconceptions, falsehoods, and lies.

In the reality of witnesses, witness accounts of wreckage and body parts, video evidence, actual wreckage, human remains and DNA, people aboard the jets did not return to their loved ones, history of planes crashing through buildings and naval ships, radar data, and no explanation based in reality of the video taped evidence how the jet impacts could be simulated with 10,000 gallon jet fuel fireballs.

The sound of this first 'plane' was on one single video, the second 'plane' wasn't heard at all, before hitting the tower, which is not possible, if it was a real plane. It also shows the first clip was edited with sound put in afterwards, as well.

No sound was heard for the plane, in any videos shown at the time. Which weren't edited afterwards, like the first clip was.

The planes weren't real, no sound was heard from them before they appeared, overhead.

It's complete bs.

The wings would've hit thick concrete floors, along the edges, and if you believe thin sheets of aluminum could slice through thick concrete slabs for hundreds of feet within a fraction of a second, with ease, you're living in a fairy tale.

Nobody could ever replicate this, nobody would even TRY to replicate it. Because it's cartoon-land fantasy. Anyone who did try to replicate it would look like a total moron, so nobody will ever try to, obviously.

Your claim says this actually DID happen, two times on the same day, which is purely cartoon-land nonsense.

Take a plane, and fly it into thick concrete slabs, along the edges. See if the wings slice through the slabs like a hot knife through butter, or if the wings crumple, and sheer off at first impact.....

Obviously, you believe the wings would slice through the concrete, right? You must believe that, because that's what you believe happened, that the planes wings sliced right through all the concrete slabs in the towers, on 9/11!! That's what the videos all show, so it must be true!

The truth is that these were NOT real planes, slicing through thick slabs of concrete over hundreds of feet, all within a few milliseconds. That's a cartoon. It may have appeared real, to you, but it was all a cartoon. A high-tech cartoon, yes, but it was still just a cartoon, in the end.

Don't you understand that is why NOBODY can ever replicate it, since it's a fairy tale, and nobody can replicate a cartoon like it was ever based on the real world. With real physics. Not cartoon physics, or holograms, or so forth, from videos.

It's no concern of mine if you prefer to believe in such a cartoon-land story, where thin wings slice through concrete slabs like butter, you can have it all you want. But it is not reality, and never will be, and I prefer reality over cartoons, myself.

a reply to: turbonium1

You just ignored all the posted evidence to lie to yourself. The truth is flight 175 and flight 11 hitting the twin towers.

You

The truth is that these were NOT real planes, slicing through thick slabs of concrete over hundreds of feet,

False narrative by you. The floors of the twin towers.

The floors were constructed of decking of sheet metal covered in light weight covered concrete 4 inches thick. With about ten feet of open space between each floor in a building about 95 percent open space. With the floors connected to the structure through metal floor connections. The sections of floor decking were only as strong as the metal floor connections allowed.

www.fema.gov...

So no. The two jets would not encounter the cheap floor decking until it bashed and broken through the outer column welds. Then entered a building mostly empty space with enough energy to bust the cheap floor decking panels from there connections to the vertical columns. While some of those floor connections being destroyed when the jets entered through the outer vertical columns of the buildings.

And the WW II bomber hitting the Empire State Building proves even a slow moving and substantially smaller aircraft than the ones the hit the twin towers can pass through thick mortar and masonry structures.
—————

So, just more truth movement falsehoods and lies by you.

a reply to: turbonium1

These are the people you are totally disrespecting, and their surviving family members. I am glad real loss and grief is a joke to you. When real jets loaded with real people hit the twin towers.

stgvisie.home.xs4all.nl...

LYNN CATHERINE GOODCHILD
Lynn Catherine GoodchildUnited Flight 175

INSEPARABLE TRAVELERS

It was supposed have been a quick getaway for Lynn Catherine Goodchild and Shawn M. Nassaney, a four-day trip to Maui, Hawaii, before they hunkered down to study for their M.B.A. degrees at Providence College.

So, they woke early on Sept. 11 to board United Airlines Flight 175, which was to take them to Los Angeles, where they would take a connecting flight to Maui, said Ellen Goodchild, Ms. Goodchild's mother.

They had almost decided against the trip, considering a vacation in Sydney, Australia. But they decided to visit a place where neither had traveled before. (The couple had lived in Sydney briefly after Mr. Nassaney was transferred there last year by his job.)

Now, both families wonder what would have happened if the couple had gone to Sydney instead of Maui. But they find serenity in the fact that the two were together. The couple had been almost inseparable since they met at Bryant College in Smithfield, R.I., more than four years ago, traveling frequently.

For Mr. Nassaney's 25th birthday in July, Ms. Goodchild took him to Disney World in Florida for four days. They spent four days in London for Valentine's Day. And in January, they went to Palm Beach Gardens, Fla., where Ms. Goodchild attended a birthday party for one of her college roommates.

Ms. Goodchild, 25, worked at Putnam Investments as a 401(k) plan administrator. Mr. Nassaney worked in the sales department at American Power Conversion.

Ms. Goodchild and Mr. Nassaney had a lot in common. Both were athletic and came from close-knit families. Ms. Goodchild practiced karate, while Mr. Nassaney was a runner. Ms. Goodchild lived with her brother, Neil Goodchild, 27, in Attleboro, Mass. Mr. Nassaney lived in his grandmother's three-story apartment building in Pawtucket, R.I., along with his two brothers.

"Just because Shawn is not there, it will still be his apartment," said his grandmother, Barbara Shaw. "It will be a little sanctuary for me."

Profile published in THE NEW YORK TIMES on December 15, 2001.


Lynn Goodchild,

administrator, 25

By Globe Staff, 9/14/2001

Lynn Catherine Goodchild, of Attleboro, an administrator for Putnam Investments in Norwood, died Tuesday on United Airlines Flight 175 in New York, en route to a vacation in Hawaii. She was 25.

Miss Goodchild was a lifelong resident of Attleboro, graduating from Attleboro High School in 1994.

She received her bachelor's degree from Bryant College in Smithfield, R.I., in 1998 and had been working toward her master's degree at Providence College.

At Bryant, she was the president of the college karate club.

She had worked for Putnam Investments for the past three years.

Miss Goodchild enjoyed traveling and was on vacation with a companion, Shawn Nassaney of Pawtucket, who was also killed on the flight.

She leaves her parents, William C. III and Ellen R. (Reynolds), and a brother, Neil K., all of Attleboro; and her grandmother, Elizabeth, of Beverly.

A memorial Mass will be said at 10 a.m. Monday in St. Mark's Church in North Attleborough.

Editorial Obituary published in THE BOSTON GLOBE on 9/14/2001.

www.legacy.com...

www.legacy.com...

LAURA LEE MORABITO
Laura Lee MorabitoAmerican Flight 11

MANILOW AND ICE CREAM


Laura Lee Morabito, 34, the national sales manager for Qantas Airways, met her future husband in the jacuzzi at an apartment complex where they were neighbors. They shared an appreciation for Barry Manilow's singing, and they sat on the pool deck sharing a bottle of wine and a pizza all evening, even as rain began to fall.

"She just had a beautiful smile," Mark Morabito said.

The beautiful woman he met that night eight years ago had been a tomboy. Her older brother, Jeff DeFazio, was protective of her, and she learned to protect her younger brother, Craig DeFazio. Once, she knocked a tooth from the mouth of a child who picked on Craig.

Perhaps because Jeff had scared away her potential suitors earlier in life, she never told him about Mark until they were engaged.

"I said, 'Tell me about this guy,'" Jeff DeFazio said. He quickly decided that she had found the right match, though, and told his sister, "You guys are probably the only two people I know in the country who like Barry Manilow."

This is how Mrs. Morabito ate ice cream: she would eat only half of her portion, letting the rest melt and then drinking it slowly.

"She would just kind of savor it, as long as she could," Craig DeFazio said.

Profile published in THE NEW YORK TIMES on December 27, 2001.

Heinrich Kimmig

Occupation:
BCT Technology | Chairman & CEO
Dedicated Memorial Sites:
Boston Logan Airport 9/11 Memorial
9/11 Memorial at St. Joseph's Chapel
Conseleya 9/11 Memorial
Crescent Beach Park - Flagpole/Memorial for 9/11 Victims
Dewitt 9/11 Memorial
East Newark 9/11 Memorial
Fair Haven 9/11 Memorial
Garrison Elementary School American Patriot Garden
Keansburg beach front memorial
Montclair State University 9/11 Memorial

voicescenter.org...

a reply to: turbonium1

In short. Real witnesses account for real jets hitting the twin towers. Resulting in real wreckage and evidence. Backed by radar data. Resulting in real loss and suffering for real families and people.

But it’s a big joke for you to exploit to spread real lies. The truth movement is one big jackass. And killed its own credibility long ago.

a reply to: neutronflux

And the source that would make air waves would make seismic waves. But there is no evidence in the frequencies and wave types in the seismic date to indicate explosives.

You know full well the complexity within what you are claiming. Overcomplicating the subject i.e. diverting to seismic in this case, is what you do, for your peace of mind. This behavior is repetitive.

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

And the source that would make air waves would make seismic waves. But there is no evidence in the frequencies and wave types in the seismic date to indicate explosives.

You know full well the complexity within what you are claiming. Overcomplicating the subject i.e. diverting to seismic in this case, is what you do, for your peace of mind. This behavior is repetitive.

You got proven wrong, then your only resort is personal attacks.

Again. There is nothing in the seismic evidence by wave type and by frequency to indicate explosives cut structural members.

Which brings it back to two points.

One. The controlled demolition fantasy is dead on arrival. The controlled demolition systems would not have survived the jet impacts and fire to initiate collapse as captured by video

Two. The core columns collapsed after the floor systems were completely sheared away. Whole lengths of core columns stood whole seconds before tumbling down. The floor connections were either sheared by over loading, or bent down wards. Not cut. Supporting the floor system was sheared from the vertical columns while they still stood. What structural members did the fantasy explosives work on?

originally posted by: neutronflux

The floors were constructed of decking of sheet metal covered in light weight covered concrete 4 inches thick. With about ten feet of open space between each floor in a building about 95 percent open space. With the floors connected to the structure through metal floor connections. The sections of floor decking were only as strong as the metal floor connections allowed.

So no. The two jets would not encounter the cheap floor decking until it bashed and broken through the outer column welds. Then entered a building mostly empty space with enough energy to bust the cheap floor decking panels from there connections to the vertical columns. While some of those floor connections being destroyed when the jets entered through the outer vertical columns of the buildings.

And the WW II bomber hitting the Empire State Building proves even a slow moving and substantially smaller aircraft than the ones the hit the twin towers can pass through thick mortar and masonry structures.

No, it proves planes don't sink into such structures, they crush into concrete floors, and columns, after a few feet, and DO NOT pummel all the way through a building....not even close! The debris was either on the ground, outside the building, or about 20-30 feet inside it, shred to pieces. Look at the photos of it, so you'll see exactly what happens when a plane hits such a structure. The plane doesn't win that battle, ever. Aluminum shells hitting thick concrete floors and steel columns don't fare well...it's that simple.

The floors prove what happens when planes hit buildings...



Wow, who figured?

a reply to: turbonium1

Mane. That is incoherent babbling?

A engine from a smaller 25,000 lbs bomber did pass all the way through the Empire State Building. The plane was traveling under 200 mph.

The jets that hit the towers weighed at least 250,000, and were traveling over 400 mph.

Again...

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: turbonium1

Planes cannot go through buildings like this.

Yes they can.

The Jets that hit the towers had around 10,000 pounds of fuel. With large amounts of fuel in the wing tanks.

If you don’t think a 68,000 pound slug of fuel traveling over 400 mph can take out building structures, then you are clueless about physics.


Then you have the landing gear, wing bases, and engines that are made out of more durable alloys than the skin of the jet.

A B-25 bomber weighing 25,000 pounds, and flying 200 mph punched a hole through the Empire State Building. Vs a 767 flying over 400 mph and weighing over 200,000 lbs hitting a building cheaply clad.

When an Army Plane Crashed Into the Empire State Building

time.com...

“The bomber gored through the thick steel and stone of the building as if they were papier-mâché,” TIME reported.

Plane crashes into Empire State Building

www.history.com...


One engine from the plane went straight through the building and landed in a penthouse apartment across the street. Other plane parts ended up embedded in and on top of nearby buildings. The other engine snapped an elevator cable while at least one woman was riding in the elevator car. The emergency auto brake saved the woman from crashing to the bottom, but the engine fell down the shaft and landed on top of it. Quick-thinking rescuers pulled the woman from the elevator, saving her life.

1945 Empire State Building B-25 crash


en.m.wikipedia.org...

At 9:40 a.m., the aircraft crashed into the north side of the Empire State Building, between the 78th and 80th floors, making an 18-by-20-foot (5.5 m × 6.1 m) hole in the building[7] into the offices of the War Relief Society and the National Catholic Welfare Council. One engine shot through the south side opposite the impact and flew as far as the next block, dropping 900 feet (270 m) and landing on the roof of a nearby building and causing a fire that destroyed a penthouse art studio. The other engine and part of the landing gear fell down an elevator shaft. The resulting fire was extinguished in 40 minutes. The Empire State Building fire is the only significant fire at such a height[vague] to be brought under control by firefighters.[7]

Plane crashes into apartment building

www.history.com...

A cargo plane crashes into an apartment building near an airport in Amsterdam, Holland, on October 4, 1992. Four people aboard the plane and approximately 100 more in the apartment building lost their lives in the disaster.

Pictures from crash

El Al flight 1862
aviation-safety.net...

Simulation of WTC impact

Scientists simulate jet colliding with World Trade Center

m.youtube.com...

a reply to: turbonium1

You

The wings would've hit thick concrete floors, along the edges, and if you believe thin sheets of aluminum could slice through thick concrete slabs for hundreds of feet within a fraction of a second, with ease, you're living in a fairy tale.

Hello. The buildings were 95 percent open space. It’s more likely the wings would not hit the edge of floor decking that was only as strong as the steel bolting to the steel and welded columns.

There are pictures of the impact holes for each tower. Please diagram on each wing where they would have hit floor decking after the long nose leading the way busted welds and floor connections.

a reply to: turbonium1

By the way. What does this have to do with the jets and wings breaking welds of the outside vertical columns before encountering floor pans? And the more durable parts like engines and landing gear passing all the way though at least one tower.

If the jests would not pass entirely into buildings 95 percent open space with the floor decking only as strong as the steel floor connections, where should the jets have gone?

a reply to: turbonium1

And before you go on about jets not passing through a building...



I see lots of concrete.... busted concrete with a large hole....