Trying to resolve 9/11

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: turbonium1
They cannot replicate cartoon physics, it is impossible.

So it's about explosives, etc.


Anything but debating how it cannot work within our physical reality!

Don’t have to. The collapse of the towers are right there in the video evidence. The towers didn’t collapse through the path of greatest resistance. The floor system connections went, then the vertical columns toppled in the wake of the floor system. The vertical columns fell last.

With zero evidence of detonations with the force to cut steel columns. No evidence of thermite cutting columns.

Like speaking about how a cartoon event might happen in the real world, it ignores proof, by demonstration, and by replication, to prove such an event IS possible.

If you believe this event can happen, it's provable, repeatable, and demonstrable, in the real world.

But it cannot be proven, or repeated, or demonstrated, as true, as real, in any way.


This argument ignores physical laws, and sells cartoon physics as reality.

a reply to: turbonium1

Dude. It’s right there in video evidence.

The floor connections from the twin towers were analyzed.

Failure of Welded Floor Truss Connections from the Exterior Wall during Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers
Failure of connections, as a result of overloading, occurred within the heat-affected zone of the base metals

app.aws.org...

Summary
Analysis of the connections supporting the composite floor system of the WTC towers showed that at and below the im- pact floors, the greater majority (above 90%) of the floor truss connections were either bent downward or completely re- moved from the exterior column. This was probably related to the overloading of the floors below the impact region after col- lapse initiation. Depending upon weld joint geometry, detachment of the main load-bearing seats was a result of either fracture in the heat affected zone of the base material (standoff plate detached from spandrel) or through the weld metal (seat angle detached from standoff plate). Failure in both cases was assumed to be a result of a shear mechanism as a result of overloading from floors above impacting those below. There did not appear to be a significant change in distribution of failure modes of the floor truss connections when comparing those connections inside vs. outside of the impact region or those ex- posed to pre-collapse fires and those that were not.

And this ones more for WTC 7, but yes. There was observed floor failures in WTC 5. And an instance of buckling.








WTC floor connection failures and buckling don’t need to be replicated. There was observed WTC floor connection failures and an observed instance of buckling.

You point is false.

Now. Do you have evidence of a detonation with the force to cut steel columns. Do you have evidence of columns cut by thermite.

Video evidence. ROFLMAO

originally posted by: Salander
Video evidence. ROFLMAO

Random statement with no logical argument with no supporting evidence based on pseudoscience or falsehoods.

The truth movement equivalent of runaway.

Unless you can prove otherwise.

a reply to: neutronflux

Again a paper and the enigmatic two words; "collapse initiation" with dismal focus on what role the core structure played.
How many core columns did NIST inspect from WTC 1 and 2?

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

Again a paper and the enigmatic two words; "collapse initiation" with dismal focus on what role the core structure played.
How many core columns did NIST inspect from WTC 1 and 2?

I am game. You tell me.

Moot point because there is zero evidence of detonations or thermite to prompt an investigation.

Unless....






You can show how the video/ audio evidence is more supportive of a conspiracy fantasy?

Vs cooling and contracting floor trusses pulled in on the outer vertical columns to the point they bowed inward and buckled at the areas of jet impacts. Making it impossible planted charges initiated collapse. The stories above the bowing and buckling fell into the building below.

The pre-collapse inward bowing of WTC2

www.metabunk.org...

The falling mass broke floor connections.

Failure of Welded Floor Truss Connections from the Exterior Wall during Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers
Failure of connections, as a result of overloading, occurred within the heat-affected zone of the base metals

app.aws.org...

Summary
Analysis of the connections supporting the composite floor system of the WTC towers showed that at and below the im- pact floors, the greater majority (above 90%) of the floor truss connections were either bent downward or completely re- moved from the exterior column. This was probably related to the overloading of the floors below the impact region after col- lapse initiation. Depending upon weld joint geometry, detachment of the main load-bearing seats was a result of either fracture in the heat affected zone of the base material (standoff plate detached from spandrel) or through the weld metal (seat angle detached from standoff plate). Failure in both cases was assumed to be a result of a shear mechanism as a result of overloading from floors above impacting those below. There did not appear to be a significant change in distribution of failure modes of the floor truss connections when comparing those connections inside vs. outside of the impact region or those ex- posed to pre-collapse fires and those that were not.

And the vertical columns only tumbled down because of loss of lateral support from the failed floor systems.

9/11 and the Science
of Controlled Demolitions

www.skeptic.com...

3WHAT ABOUT THE ALMOST FREE-FALL COLLAPSE OF THE TWIN TOWERS? The key is the “almost” modifier. If I told you I was making almost $100,000 and you found out I was making only $67,000, you’d say I was exaggerating. So stop exaggerating the collapse speed of the WTC Towers! The 80,000 tons of structural steel slowed down the collapses of the Twin Towers to about ⅔ (two-thirds) of free-fall.3 And the core collapsed at about 40% of free-fall speed, coming down last.4 According to Richard Gage: “To bring a building symmetrically down, what we have to do is remove the core columns.” But on 9/11 the stronger core columns came down last, which violates this supposed most fundamental rule of controlled demolition.

a reply to: neutronflux

I am game. You tell me.

Perfect! Shall we start from your link: Page 10 Ref. 4

The connections used in the core area are not discussed in this paper, as few were recovered and the as-built location of those that were could not be ascertained; information on these seats can be found in Ref. 4

As this paper presents data on the exterior wall truss connections only the core and hat truss are not discussed further.

Ref. 4: NIST NCSTAR 1-3C

Page 281 paragraph 4 in verbatim?

dead post

a reply to: democracydemo

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

I am game. You tell me.

Perfect! Shall we start from your link: Page 10 Ref. 4

The connections used in the core area are not discussed in this paper, as few were recovered and the as-built location of those that were could not be ascertained; information on these seats can be found in Ref. 4

As this paper presents data on the exterior wall truss connections only the core and hat truss are not discussed further.

Ref. 4: NIST NCSTAR 1-3C

Page 281 paragraph 4 states what?

The NIST report, additional to what democracydemo is discussing above, it doesn't even address these points:

• What happened with the elevators on various floors well below the impact zones? During an emergency these were supposed to return to their first floors by default, which did not happen.
  
• What happened with SCC located on floor 22 of WTC 1? An explosion was reported here as well as smoke, and witnesses reported that 'software did not work" when trying to unlock all the emergency doors. This department was also responsible for handing elevator power over to the NYFD in an emergency
  
• Why did WTC 2 collapse first? Firefighters made it to the sky lobby on the 78th floor and reported "2 isolated pockets of fire, 2 lines can knock them down". 10 minutes later the tower collapsed.
  
• In addition, using the released NYFD audio, a few minutes before the 2nd tower collapsed, a fire fighter was reported down on the 19th floor, why?
  

The NIST report also completely dismisses the witnesses who reported the lower level explosions from the basement areas upward, evidently that's where the transformers were kept, there was also reports of smoke and broken windows in the underground mall area. Check the video below at the 1 minute mark, shot roughly 4/5 minutes after first plane impact, what's happening with the water fountain?

These are just some of the anomalies, made even more strange by the fact that it is generally accepted the majority of jet fuel burned up within the first moments of the impact(s).

a reply to: democracydemo

Ok. Now do you have proof of explosives cutting steel columns.

a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Do you have evidence of detonations with the force to cut steel columns fro the video, audio, seismic evidence?

a reply to: democracydemo

Again...

Can you show how the video/ audio evidence is more supportive of a conspiracy fantasy?

Vs cooling and contracting floor trusses pulled in on the outer vertical columns to the point they bowed inward and buckled at the areas of jet impacts. Making it impossible planted charges initiated collapse. The stories above the bowing and buckling fell into the building below.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Zcustosmorum

Do you have evidence of detonations with the force to cut steel columns fro the video, audio, seismic evidence?

It's not for me to provide evidence, beyond the academics who already have that is, my point is that the official investigation was a botched farce, whether deliberate or not, which failed to address and answer some of the most important points surrounding the events, hence why we are here constantly banging heads.

Additionally, do you recall what happens shortly after this video was shot (picture provided by yourself)?



Yes, that's right, molten metal begins to form like a waterfall from this corner of WTC 2 shortly before it collapses, what's your explanation for that considering it takes temperatures upwards of 1000 degrees C to do that, and I'm being generous with that figure

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: democracydemo

Again...

Can you show how the video/ audio evidence is more supportive of a conspiracy fantasy?

Vs cooling and contracting floor trusses pulled in on the outer vertical columns to the point they bowed inward and buckled at the areas of jet impacts. Making it impossible planted charges initiated collapse. The stories above the bowing and buckling fell into the building below.

Don't run.

Answer is 4 (four) columns

In the two buildings, there were 329 core columns (each three stories tall) traversing floors involved in fires. National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) has portions of four of these columns, and on average about half of each column was recovered. While these pieces allow some comparison of metal and paint condition with the predications of the fire model, the recovered steel represents less than one percent of all the core columns intersecting floors with fire. Thus, the forensic analysis indicating moderate temperature excursions in the recovered core columns does not, and cannot, give a picture of temperatures seen by the vast majority of the core columns.

NIST NCSTAR 1-3C

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
Additionally, do you recall what happens shortly after this video was shot (picture provided by yourself)?

Yes, that's right, molten metal begins to form like a waterfall from this corner of WTC 2 shortly before it collapses, what's your explanation for that considering it takes temperatures upwards of 1000 degrees C to do that, and I'm being generous with that figure

The "metal" was not aluminium, as NIST claimed, because it burns with a white glow, whereas the stream of molten metal pouring out of WTC2 was yellow. It was lead from banks of lead batteries stored as a backup power source for computers by a Japanese bank on the very floor that Flight 175 crashed into. Lead has a melting point of 327.5 °C, well within reach of the typical temperatures of office fires. This leak of molten metal was a red herring used by the thermate branch of the 9/11 truth movement as evidence that thermate was used to cut supporting core columns of the twin towers. It is no such evidence, as had that been the case, one would have expected metal melted by thermate to have leaked out of other areas of the tower damaged by the impact of the plane. It didn't. It leaked out solely from the very area where many tons of lead batteries were stored and which became immersed in fires caused by the exploding plane. In fact, that floor had been reinforced the previous year in order to support the increased weight of the stacks of batteries stored there.

a reply to: micpsi

It was lead from banks of lead batteries stored as a backup power source for computers by a Japanese bank on the very floor that Flight 175 crashed into

The bank company was Fuji Bank, however this is yet another point of contention, because NIST described the flowing metal as being aluminium from the plane which had exited from this point of the building, roughly around floor(s) 77-78.

This leak of molten metal was a red herring used by the thermate branch of the 9/11 truth movement as evidence that thermate was used to cut supporting core columns of the twin towers

This is debatable seeing as there's differing ideas about just exactly what kind of metal it is.

one would have expected metal melted by thermate to have leaked out of other areas of the tower damaged by the impact of the plane

Not true, if indeed the academics who point to thermate being used are correct, this would apply at the lower levels of the building(s) up, specifically from the basement levels and from the central core where the elevators and stairways were, so not visible from the outside, even less so with the smoke being produced. Additionally, I can't recall ever seeing a controlled demolition where molten metal leaked out of the building, I'm sure this would be a health and safety issue within the demolition industry had that been the case

It is no such evidence, as had that been the case, one would have expected metal melted by thermate to have leaked out of other areas of the tower damaged by the impact of the plane. It didn't. It leaked out solely from the very area where many tons of lead batteries were stored and which became immersed in fires caused by the exploding plane. In fact, that floor had been reinforced the previous year in order to support the increased weight of the stacks of batteries stored there.

Your hypothesis is certainly original, so provide a source as I would like to see it

a reply to: democracydemo

Who is running.

Your the one that never addressed anything?


Again...

The context of the whole argument.

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

Again a paper and the enigmatic two words; "collapse initiation" with dismal focus on what role the core structure played.
How many core columns did NIST inspect from WTC 1 and 2?

I am game. You tell me.

Moot point because there is zero evidence of detonations or thermite to prompt an investigation.

Unless....






You can show how the video/ audio evidence is more supportive of a conspiracy fantasy?

Vs cooling and contracting floor trusses pulled in on the outer vertical columns to the point they bowed inward and buckled at the areas of jet impacts. Making it impossible planted charges initiated collapse. The stories above the bowing and buckling fell into the building below.

The pre-collapse inward bowing of WTC2

www.metabunk.org...

The falling mass broke floor connections.

Failure of Welded Floor Truss Connections from the Exterior Wall during Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers
Failure of connections, as a result of overloading, occurred within the heat-affected zone of the base metals

app.aws.org...

Summary
Analysis of the connections supporting the composite floor system of the WTC towers showed that at and below the im- pact floors, the greater majority (above 90%) of the floor truss connections were either bent downward or completely re- moved from the exterior column. This was probably related to the overloading of the floors below the impact region after col- lapse initiation. Depending upon weld joint geometry, detachment of the main load-bearing seats was a result of either fracture in the heat affected zone of the base material (standoff plate detached from spandrel) or through the weld metal (seat angle detached from standoff plate). Failure in both cases was assumed to be a result of a shear mechanism as a result of overloading from floors above impacting those below. There did not appear to be a significant change in distribution of failure modes of the floor truss connections when comparing those connections inside vs. outside of the impact region or those ex- posed to pre-collapse fires and those that were not.

And the vertical columns only tumbled down because of loss of lateral support from the failed floor systems.

9/11 and the Science
of Controlled Demolitions

www.skeptic.com...

3WHAT ABOUT THE ALMOST FREE-FALL COLLAPSE OF THE TWIN TOWERS? The key is the “almost” modifier. If I told you I was making almost $100,000 and you found out I was making only $67,000, you’d say I was exaggerating. So stop exaggerating the collapse speed of the WTC Towers! The 80,000 tons of structural steel slowed down the collapses of the Twin Towers to about ⅔ (two-thirds) of free-fall.3 And the core collapsed at about 40% of free-fall speed, coming down last.4 According to Richard Gage: “To bring a building symmetrically down, what we have to do is remove the core columns.” But on 9/11 the stronger core columns came down last, which violates this supposed most fundamental rule of controlled demolition.

Because you don’t like a report doesn’t mean there is proof of the fantasy conspiracies?

Should I believe in nukes?

No planes and missiles or lasers?

Dr Wood’s Dustification?

Should I believe in Gages fizzle no flash bombs. When a controlled demolition system would never survive the jet impacts? And the towers did not fall through the path of greatest resistance?



Or should I believe the columns were cut by thermite? When the columns fell last? From tumbling? Not being cut? With no visible molten cuts? Form columns still standing?

a reply to: democracydemo

You do understand how failure analysis works?

You do understand that there was no evidence of failures from explosives or thermite. You do understand the same failures were witnessed again and again. An investigation only needs to analyze a representative sample of the same type of failure that is present / witnesses again and again?

What analysis should they have ran that wasn’t ran? That would be the more accurate question. Based on the nature of the collapse of the twin towers? What analysis was missing?

Back to the engine block failure example.

A mechanic see this failure.



They should test for explosives? No. It be ridiculous.

You see the same type of shear failure, or broken weld failure present thousands of times in the structural steel. Do you lab analyze every failure. No. You take a representative sample of the repeated witnesses failure mode, then you analyze that sample. You don’t conduct a thousand lab analysis for the same type of failure when a representative sample gives you the answers you need.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: democracydemo

You do understand how failure analysis works?

You do understand that there was no evidence of failures from explosives or thermite. You do understand the same failures were witnessed again and again. An investigation only needs to analyze a representative sample of the same type of failure that is present / witnesses again and again?

What analysis should they have ran that wasn’t ran? That would be the more accurate question. Based on the nature of the collapse of the twin towers? What analysis was missing?

Back to the engine block failure example.

A mechanic see this failure.

They should test for explosives? No. It be ridiculous.

You see the same type of shear failure, or broken weld failure present thousands of times in the structural steel. Do you lab analyze every failure. No. You take a representative sample of the repeated witnesses failure mode, then you analyze that sample. You don’t conduct a thousand lab analysis for the same type of failure when a representative sample gives you the answers you need.

Explained, numerous times in the thread" 9/11 was the first occasion a steel high rise collapsed because of fire. Take a step back for once and try to understand why people are skeptical? You mention local area steel failures have taken place before, so what? Have you examples of steel-framed building collapsing at free-fall speed prior to 9/11? If you don't have any real-world examples, then don't be attacking other posters points of view about the collapse with this amount of confidence. You also avoid steel found with holes, was a new discovery unseen before 9/11. Past fires have burned down many smaller sized buildings " made of steel and concrete and nobody has found in rubble afterwards steel that rotted, decayed and partially melted.  You find in the rubble evidence a high temp event had taken place. A paper local area fire can 't explain this new discovery and to believe otherwise, you specifically need to provide evidence for the fire causing it.

originally posted by: micpsi

originally posted by: Zcustosmorum
Additionally, do you recall what happens shortly after this video was shot (picture provided by yourself)?

Yes, that's right, molten metal begins to form like a waterfall from this corner of WTC 2 shortly before it collapses, what's your explanation for that considering it takes temperatures upwards of 1000 degrees C to do that, and I'm being generous with that figure

The "metal" was not aluminium, as NIST claimed, because it burns with a white glow, whereas the stream of molten metal pouring out of WTC2 was yellow. It was lead from banks of lead batteries stored as a backup power source for computers by a Japanese bank on the very floor that Flight 175 crashed into. Lead has a melting point of 327.5 °C, well within reach of the typical temperatures of office fires. This leak of molten metal was a red herring used by the thermate branch of the 9/11 truth movement as evidence that thermate was used to cut supporting core columns of the twin towers. It is no such evidence, as had that been the case, one would have expected metal melted by thermate to have leaked out of other areas of the tower damaged by the impact of the plane. It didn't. It leaked out solely from the very area where many tons of lead batteries were stored and which became immersed in fires caused by the exploding plane. In fact, that floor had been reinforced the previous year in order to support the increased weight of the stacks of batteries stored there.

False
9/11 debunkers do not read mainstream 9/11 report statements accurately. If they had, would have acknowledged the sentences in FEMA study, where they've described a hot liquid of Iron developed during the hot corrosion fire. They never claim a liquid of AI or lead came together with building materials, they claim a liquid of "Iron" and Sulfur formed. Molten Iron in a liquid state has the color red/yellow. 

Instead of wondering about what happened, the steel studies showed some steel members melted on 9/11. How much of the steel melted, we never know, but the phenomenon is real and not easily explained.