Trying to resolve 9/11

a reply to: neutronflux

Not to the four forensic investigators. So instead of a forklift try the kitchen sink.

Or read, with thought, what you are presented with.

originally posted by: neutronflux
The jet fuel exploded on impact and resulted in a shockwave. A shockwave that was heard. At what speed would the shockwave from the explosion travel through the air? You might want to study what makes sound waves? And how sound waves travel through the air? And at what speeds.

I believe it is you who has his science wrong. We are talking about an air pressure shock wave blowing out on the top levels - that has nothing to do with the speed of sound. The sound would reach the observer first followed by the shock wave which clearly shows the shock wave travels slower than the sound produced by the impact/explosion.

The air pressure shock wave caused by the plane impacting would travel at the same initial speed as the plane.

originally posted by: neutronflux
And there is no evidence what you are addressing was caused by planted explosives. And has everything to do with the shockwave of the jet fuel exploding on the impact.

It is highly unlikely that an explosion that visibly occurred mainly on the outside of the structure could cause a blowout on the top levels front and left. Hence there is no evidence that the blow out was not caused by planted explosives either.

originally posted by: MoonMine

originally posted by: neutronflux
The jet fuel exploded on impact and resulted in a shockwave. A shockwave that was heard. At what speed would the shockwave from the explosion travel through the air? You might want to study what makes sound waves? And how sound waves travel through the air? And at what speeds.

I believe it is you who has his science wrong. We are talking about an air pressure shock wave blowing out on the top levels - that has nothing to do with the speed of sound. The sound would reach the observer first followed by the shock wave which clearly shows the shock wave travels slower than the sound produced by the impact/explosion.

The air pressure shock wave caused by the plane impacting would travel at the same initial speed as the plane.

You are clueless about sound.

Sound is the energy things produce when they vibrate (move back and forth quickly). If you bang a drum, you make the tight skin vibrate at very high speed (it's so fast that you can't usually see it), forcing the air all around it to vibrate as well. As the air moves, it carries energy out from the drum in all directions. Eventually, even the air inside your ears starts vibrating—and that's when you begin to perceive the vibrating drum as a sound.

www.explainthatstuff.com...

By definition, sound is a pressure wave that travels through the air. If you heard just the jet hit the tower with no fuel exploding, that event would still cause an audible pressure wave through the air at the speed of sound.

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

Not to the four forensic investigators. So instead of a forklift try the kitchen sink.

Or read, with thought, what you are presented with.

The below was not caused by “Very high pressure gas to a surface.”




Sorry. There is no sign of erosion. There is no sign of pitting. There is every indication of being punched by a corner of a steel column. The break is too clean. A jet would not cause mechanical tearing.

a reply to: democracydemo

You understand the below was cut by a pressure wave right?


That is how explosives work.

Which looks like nothing like a piece punched by another piece of steel.

originally posted by: neutronflux
You are clueless about sound.

Sure I am.

Keep posting your dribble while the rest of us continue investigating.

a reply to: democracydemo

So the jet hole is a bunch of BS? And how is a jet hole different than an explosive cutting a hole by pressure wave?

The truth movement cannot use terms that are based in reality, science, and established fields like metallurgy. So they create their own pseudoscience and pseudoscience BS terms like jet hole.

a reply to: neutronflux

Pressure wave is good.
To be officially accurate, in terms, NIST uses the definition "pressure pulses" in their publications.
End result (evidence) is what we see now.

a reply to: MoonMine

Regarding shrapnel from the explosions, as Neutron clearly knows and has discussed previously here, the most obvious example is the piece(s) impaled into the American Express Building hundreds of feet removed.

FEMA photos showed that early on, and those photos were quickly pulled from mainstream media, though some can still be seen.

The dust from the explosions, certainly not actual shrapnel, covered lower Manhattan. It has been analyzed and shows evidence of thermite.

originally posted by: democracydemo
a reply to: neutronflux

Pressure wave is good.
To be officially accurate, in terms, NIST uses the definition "pressure pulses" in their publications.
End result (evidence) is what we see now.

Would you actual quote in context? Would you like to actual cite the actual source?

Like this?

Impact of Variable Pulse Pressure and Nonlinear Propagation on Industrial Ultrasonic NDE Measurement Interpretation and Uncertainty

www.nist.gov...

There’s lots of things that make pressure. The pressure of steel on steel? What form of measurement would one use to determine the force needed to use a hydraulic press to punch a hole through a steel plate?

originally posted by: Salander
a reply to: MoonMine

Regarding shrapnel from the explosions, as Neutron clearly knows and has discussed previously here, the most obvious example is the piece(s) impaled into the American Express Building hundreds of feet removed.

FEMA photos showed that early on, and those photos were quickly pulled from mainstream media, though some can still be seen.

The dust from the explosions, certainly not actual shrapnel, covered lower Manhattan. It has been analyzed and shows evidence of thermite.

You mean this photo from this thread?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Salander

You

The photos showing the WTC pieces stuck in adjacent buildings were taken by FEMA and others.

Did you ever reply to the below?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Salander

Kwahakev tried this game and posted this picture.

originally posted by: kwakakev

So far, you haven’t even provide any evidence concerning cut steel columns.

If you are not going to be serious about this i am not going to help you with your silly games.

One. If explosives hurled this massive piece of building, the explosion wound have been massive. The resultant pressure wave would have been obvious, and ruptured eardrums throughout manhattan. There is still intact windows in the building part of the WTC fell into. The pressure waves from explosions hurling ton pieces of building would have completely knocked out windows.

Two. The piece contains broken welds, with no indication of being worked by cutting charges.

Three, why would cutting charges hurl large pieces of building?

Four, the pieces are explained by the tumbling action of the structural steel.

a reply to: Salander

You mean like the photos posted in these links?
www.toad.com.../wtc100301/wtc-photos.htm

aneta.org...

www.dailymail.co.uk...

wikimapia.org...

www.fema.gov...

sites.google.com...

originally posted by: MoonMine

originally posted by: neutronflux
You are clueless about sound.

Sure I am.

Keep posting your dribble while the rest of us continue investigating.

You

At 1:11 Less than one second after impact a cloud of dark grey smoke comes out of the top floor on the front and the top floor to the left.

Your argument is false from the start.



From the video in your post. At 1:11, there is no “ cloud of dark grey smoke comes out of the top floor on the front and the top floor“

a reply to: neutronflux

Would you actual quote in context? Would you like to actual cite the actual source?

Go ahead and read it: nvlpubs.nist.gov...

a reply to: democracydemo

Ok

Having heard over their radios the orders that they should evacuate, some of the responders inside the tower headed down the stairwells and out of the building, telling their comrades on the way. Others did not, having not received the message, having climbed too high to now get out in time, or continuing on the missions to help others still in the building.
A pressure pulse generated by the collapse of WTC 2 appeared to intensify
the fires in WTC 1 . Within 4 s of the collapse of WTC 2, flames burst fromthesouthsidewindowsofthe98"^floor. Thefiresonthenorthfacesofthe92"'',94'",and96'"floors brightened noticeably. Flames near the south end of the east face of the 92"'' and 96"' floors also flared. The fires on the east and south faces of the 98"' floor already extended out the windows. Those in the WTC1 stairwellsfeltagushofwind.

nvlpubs.nist.gov...

The damage was most severe on the 80* and 81" floors, hit directly by the fuselage. On the lower floor, a chunkofthefloorslabwasbroken,justabovetheaffectedpieceofthe79"^floor. Inaddition,a70ft deep strip along the east side of the core floor was crushed. The north side floor slab sagged along its eastern end. Ten of the perimeter columns severed on the 79* floor were displaced here also. Within the buildingcore,tencolumnsweresevered,includingmanythatwereseveredonthe79*floor. TheSFRM was stripped not only from the eastern two thirds of the core structural elements, nearly to the north wall, but also from most of the trusses on the east tenant space, all the way to the north fa9ade.
40 NISTNCSTAR1, WTCInvestigation

On the Sr' floor, the fuselage pulverized a section of the floor 40 ft wide that extended into the southeast comerofthecore. TheSFRMandgypsumfireprotectiononthefulldepthoftheeastsideofthecore andintheentireeastsideofthetenantspacewasstripped. Thestructuraldamagetothecorecolumns was limited to near the southeast comer, but as mentioned above, the impulses felt here caused damage to thekeycomercolumnallthewaydowntothe78""floor. Therightenginepassedallthewaythroughthe Sr' floor, exited from the northeast comer, and damaged the roof of a building on Church Street, before comingtorestsome1,500ftnortheastofWTC2nearthecomerofMurrayandChurchStreets. Theright landing gear assembly passed through the ST' floor at the east side of the north face and landed near the engine on the roof of a building on Park Place. (See Figure 1-1 for the street locations relative to the towers.)

nvlpubs.nist.gov...

Exterior fireball from the east face of floor 82 and from the north face from floors 79 to 82. The deflagration prior to the fireballs may have caused a significant pressure pulse to act on floors above and below.
nvlpubs.nist.gov...

By 10:18 a.m., a substantial pressure pulse inside the building ejected jets of smoke from the 92"'^ and 94''' through98"'floorsofthenorthfacesandthe94"'and98"'floorsofthewestface. Firesragedonthesouth side of the 96"' through 99"' floors.
nvlpubs.nist.gov...

What is your argument concerning pressure pulse? And how does it strength your argument?

Your mystified a collapsing floor or building displaces air? And causes things like systemic waves?

originally posted by: samkent
a reply to: MoonMine
The biggest thing is you don't need to kill 3000 people and flatten some of the
largest buildings in the US to get us into a war.

Who said the main reason was to get us into a war?

There were a lot of beneficiaries to what happened on 9/11...

Follow the money...

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: samkent
a reply to: MoonMine
The biggest thing is you don't need to kill 3000 people and flatten some of the
largest buildings in the US to get us into a war.

Who said the main reason was to get us into a war?

That's true, but starting GWOT, still running like the Energizer Bunny 18 years later, was one of the goals.

There were a lot of beneficiaries to what happened on 9/11...

Follow the money...

They cannot replicate cartoon physics, it is impossible.

So it's about explosives, etc.


Anything but debating how it cannot work within our physical reality!

originally posted by: turbonium1
They cannot replicate cartoon physics, it is impossible.

So it's about explosives, etc.


Anything but debating how it cannot work within our physical reality!

Don’t have to. The collapse of the towers are right there in the video evidence. The towers didn’t collapse through the path of greatest resistance. The floor system connections went, then the vertical columns toppled in the wake of the floor system. The vertical columns fell last.



With zero evidence of detonations with the force to cut steel columns. No evidence of thermite cutting columns.