The Abortion is Murder - Madness on the so called Christian Right

a reply to: schuyler

The only way you can even entertain the idea is to pretend that an unborn child is somehow not human. How you can maintain that you are an ethical person while holding that thought is anathema to me.

When I ask myself what is wrong about killing another life, it always boils down to the capacity to suffer - which is to say sentience. We know scientifically that a critical point in neurological development has to transpire to give rise to that. Sans the capacity to suffer, it becomes an amoral proposition to me. I'm just explaining my view and why I think being pro-choice is an ethical position since you asked the question you did. I understand the religious define 'life' through their lens and form their ethics within those parameters. Since I see no good reason to believe in the religious notion of the 'divine spark', or a body of evidence demonstrating sentience upon conception, I maintain the position that the vast majority of abortions are amoral (no moral consequence). If the abortion is late enough in term then I would no longer view it as amoral and given the circumstance may view it as immoral.

a reply to: AlienView

It's world views like yours that lead to acts of genocide. The view of life as unworthy of living. If you see some as lower than animals, then what use are they and why not murder them wholesale?

What else is there to expect from those who are so cavalier about the right to life though?

a reply to: ketsuko

Au contraire - Its attitudes lke the right to life regardless, that lead to war and sometimes genocide.

I sometimes have been known to admire the Chinese who have somehow synthesized Socialism and Capitalism to create
one of the World's great economies - And they have just begun to prosper.

Yet, you will remember not so long ago when China realized it could not sustain its continuing population growth
and began to coerce women from families with more than on child where the woman was pregnant to have an
abortion.

Terrible you say, heathen Chinamen, right?

But the Chinese stabilized the problem and no longer are going in that direction.

Of course the USA is much different - since some want to continue to encourage unwanted life America has its own
way to handle the problem of excess population WAR!!! - the more wars the better - population control at its ugliest.

And when the Bush clan started the bloody and continuing wars in Afghanistan and especially in Iraq, they knew
what they were doing - And supporting right to life and controlling population the good old American way by
bloody warfare.

You know what? There will be billions of the so called heathen Chinese in Heaven before one Christian Hypocrite
sees the Golden Gates. - And you can bet your yen on it !

a reply to: AlienView

You know. . . . I'm a bit of a bastard from time to time. An opinionated asshole on occasion.

But that post had to be the nastiest thing I think I've ever seen on the pages of ATS.

And that's coming from someone who's an asshole too!

If you were going for fugly, man. . . . you nailed it!

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck

(1) Basically we have the right to life (being born and existing),
(2) freedom of choice and to freely pursue the life that gives us the most happiness, something a fetus doesn't legally have.

(1) Being born is what gives the right to life ..... before then the existence

is entirely a dependency on another?


(2) So that freedom of choice to pursue the life that gives the most happiness

in your eyes doesn't extend to a pregnant woman who for whatever reason doesn't

wish to proceed with the pregnancy?

Your Question: Being born is what gives the right to life ..... before then the existence is entirely a dependency on another?

My Answer: Yes. Being born is what gives you any rights and before birth humans are entirely dependent on their mother.

Your Question: So that freedom of choice to pursue the life that gives the most happiness in your eyes doesn't extend to a pregnant woman who for whatever reason doesn't wish to proceed with the pregnancy?

My Answer: No. "In my eyes" a pregnant woman has the right to pursue happiness based on the Declaration of Independence. If a pregnant woman's pursuit of happiness excludes being pregnant and the law forbids her to abort the pregnancy, then in her case that law works against the Declaration of Independence, a nonbinding document. However, it should be noted that although we may chase our happiness, that doesn't mean we will ever catch it esp. with so many things in life that would interfere, like an unwanted pregnancy for example.

originally posted by: AlienView
Yes, I know - They say God is on their side - God, the defender of the unborn - A God that states that every carnal act thet conceives is
protected by his devine will [remember baboons, life is conceived by carnal acts by sex] - OK righteous sobs now that you know what I think
of you - Let's proceed.

First, above all else, you are hypocrites - And there is nothing Jesus hated more than hypocrites.

You, in your twisted and sick ideology would force a Human female to bring to term unwanted life - because you say all conception is an act of
God.

I say there is no God in this universe that will forgive you for your hypocrisy - Your true hatred for the value and dignity of Human life
is obvious - And your disregard and demeaning of Human females is obvious.

In the upcoming election your political party of hypocrites will burn for its ant-female ideology
- So maybe you do love the Liberal left after all ?

Talk start taking about aborting animals that got pregnant and watch these bleeding heart liberals freak out.
They care more about animals then they do humans.

The people who want to end an organisms life before its grows into a human are really weak people.
Just because its out of sight these weak people put a living thing inside then , out of mind.

These women will have a big wake up call when one day they have a vision when a young adult who will say hi, I would have been your son or daughter if you choose not to end my life.

Mom this is what I could have been and would have looked like.

This will be a big wake up call for many women when higher ups call for a punishment for their decisions to kill a organism before it grows into a human.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: AlienView

You know. . . . I'm a bit of a bastard from time to time. An opinionated asshole on occasion.

But that post had to be the nastiest thing I think I've ever seen on the pages of ATS.

And that's coming from someone who's an asshole too!

If you were going for fugly, man. . . . you nailed it!

PERFECTLY said, friend. Because honestly other than that the thread is not even worth dignifying with a response. It is SO astoundingly ignorant and intentionally repugnant that it's obvious before you even finish the thing that this person has A SERIOUS aversion TO THE TRUTH.

I'll give a little credit where credit is due though: IT WORKED. The only possible intention of this thread was to perpetuate evil and try to stir up trouble. And it got my blood pressure up EXACTLY as it was designed to. For a second. ONLY for a second though, bc I refuse to be manipulated in any possible way by this nonsensical trash. If logic, rationality, SCIENCE & TRUTH will not be considered then I'll shake the dust off my sandals as i leave. MUCH RESPECT to all those with the patience even bother with people SO blind though!

"Arguments" like "it doesn't count as a person or have any rights until after it's born bc before birth it's entire existence is completely dependent on somebody else."

Really???

Did you somehow miss the little detail that AFTER birth..... wait for it..... it's ENTIRE existence is COMPLETELY dependent on someone else. FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS, AT LEAST!

Anyway the people have been blinded by the evil one. Otherwise it's be PAINSTAKINGLY OBVIOUS that SCIENCE ITSELF is PRECISELY clear on when life begins, and "birth" is just an arbitrarily chosen point long after.

Seek TRUTH people! Better yet, SEEK JESUS, who IS THE TRUTH and will GUIDE YOU into ALL TRUTH!

From a 'pro-lifer':

“Today the danger of the pro-life position, which I vigorously support, is that it can be frighteningly selective. The rights of the unborn and the dignity of the age-worn are pieces of the same pro-life fabric. We weep at the unjustified destruction of the unborn. Did we also weep when the evening news reported from Arkansas that a black family had been shotgunned out of a white neighborhood.

When we laud life and blast abortionists, our credibility as Christians is questionable. On one hand we proclaim the love and anguish, the pain and joy that goes into fashioning a single child. We proclaim how precious each life is to God and should be to us. On the other hand, when it is the enemy that shrieks to heaven with his flesh in flames, we do not weep, we are not shamed; we call for more”
― Brennan Manning, The Ragamuffin Gospel: Good News for the Bedraggled, Beat-Up, and Burnt Out



But my whole thesis is life without choice is not worthy of Humans - Children should be conceived and brought into this World
by choice - not obligation
And that is what distinguishes Men from beasts

a reply to: TheRedneck

Dude, that was 160 years ago. Not too long ago? What, are you Methuselah or something?

In the whole scheme of things and the fact that the OP called this thread "Christian" which started about 2000 years ago, 160 years is nothing. (plus who told you who I was, and my real name!!)

Who has the right to take existence away from someone because of a choice the taker made?

Like I said in my post, it's a difficult question to answer. For Americans that post here, a lot of them talk about their freedoms, and how it shouldn't be taken away from them by any goverment, for any reason. You yourself have posted about your freedoms and rights on ATS, gun ownership being one of them. So here's an example, so is it ok for the goverment to decide they have "ownership" of a womans body if she gets pregnant, but not a persons firearms if they become say a suspect in a crime or mentally ill? So it's your right to bare arms, but not a womans right to decide if she bares a child or not, the goverment now has the right to make that decision for her?

My quote,

Jesus said turn the other cheek but a more right wing Christian America still has the death penalty, so it's ok to kill a criminal but not abort an unborn foetus?

Your answer,

Yes, it is. That's not a religious law. We don't require laws to be religious in the US. It is based on the difference between one who kills others and one who hasn't even had a chance to see the sun yet.

I answered under the title of the thread but lots of religions have laws for their followers to follow, the 10 commandments for example, one of those being thou shall not kill, so no death penalty for a criminal, and no abortions, if a foetus is classed as a human before being born. It's a horrible thing to say but it comes down to semantics, like some other posters have said, when does a foetus become aware, when do we class "it" has a self-aware being.

We also don't have laws for "right wing Christian America." We have laws for America and laws for states. Laws apply to everyone of all religions

Again, I answered under the title of the thread "....Christian right...." with Christian being the subject matter here, but like stated above, lots of religions have laws that believers "should" follow.

a reply to: Kurokage

In the whole scheme of things and the fact that the OP called this thread "Christian" which started about 2000 years ago, 160 years is nothing.

That's a pretty arbitrary timeline you got there.

In the grand scheme of things, slavery predates Christianity by a few millenia... predates Islam by a few millenia... and even predates Judaism. I would bet that it predates Hindu, Sikh, and any other modern-day religion you can find.

On the other hand, 160 years is about 8 generations. Even if we go by the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s, we're still talking 50 years, over 2 generations. There are a few people left who can recall the Civil Rights struggle, but no one left alive who ever talked with anyone who was actually a slave. Let. It. Go.

Like I said in my post, it's a difficult question to answer. For Americans that post here, a lot of them talk about their freedoms, and how it shouldn't be taken away from them by any goverment, for any reason. You yourself have posted about your freedoms and rights on ATS, gun ownership being one of them. So here's an example, so is it ok for the goverment to decide they have "ownership" of a womans body if she gets pregnant, but not a persons firearms if they become say a suspect in a crime or mentally ill? So it's your right to bare arms, but not a womans right to decide if she bares a child or not, the goverment now has the right to make that decision for her?

No one is claiming "ownership" of a woman's body. What we are claiming is that she should respect life. We expect that of all in our society, at least in cases of someone who has been born.

There are restrictions on everyone. A person cannot assist another in committing suicide, for instance. Why not? It's their body, right? One cannot legally ingest certain substances. Why not? It's their body! One cannot engage in prostitution. Why not? It's their body!

Despite my feelings on any of those subjects, they literally affect no one else. No one is taking a reasonable chance even of dying because someone else met with a hooker... no one risks death simply because someone used drugs (DUI notwithstanding)... but when someone has an abortion, a life besides that of the mother ends. That is simply fact.

We could debate the issue much more clearly if some would simply acknowledge that one fact: it is alive, and abortion kills that life.

I answered under the title of the thread but lots of religions have laws for there followers to follow, the 10 commandments for example, one of those being thou shall not kill, so no death penalty for a criminal, and no abortions, if a foetus is classed as a human.

These religious laws you example do not carry secular consequences. If I break one of the Ten Commandments, let us say, "Thou shalt honor thy mother and father," I cannot be incarcerated or even fined. The reason is that it is my choice what religion to follow. If I do not like the Christian "laws" I can simply ignore them and perhaps convert to something else. (Just not Southern Baptist; they have more laws than Christians.)

Or I can escape them all and call myself "atheist." I cannot do this with secular law; if I kill someone, it doesn't matter what church I belong to... I can be charged with murder and incarcerated (or in extreme cases, executed). That's why your comparison of religious "law" to secular law is inappropriate.

TheRedneck

a reply to: AlienView

Our ability to control our primal urges is what separates Men from beasts...

... at least it used to be. Today I wonder if there is a separation sometimes...

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Remember, the baboons are cleaner and better, so perhaps the OP really does want to live like the animals.

Perhaps he ought to make a study of the sexual habits of sea otters. It's not pretty no matter how cute they are. Or perhaps lion pride life is more his style. I hear lions are into extreme late term abortion too.

a reply to: AlienView

It took me a moment to see what was going on here, but now it is clear. You dislike the right and Christians so you've taken a position opposite of them and decided to paint the issue as theirs. You might be surprised to learn that there are many pro-life democrats and many pro-life non-Christians.

I do love when those who hate Christians try to turn Jesus Christ against them. It's usually quite comical and you didn't disappoint. 'Jesus hated [class of people]' is a term that will find you laughed out of a room, provided it's filled with sane people with any understanding of Christianity.

You've made quite a lot of assumptions:

You, in your twisted and sick ideology would force a Human female to bring to term unwanted life

That life is not unwanted. Even if it is unwanted by this human female you speak of.

because you say all conception is an act of God.

No because the life that starts growing at conception is going to be a baby.

I say there is no God in this universe that will forgive you for your hypocrisy

Again with your lack of understanding about God and Christianity.

Your true hatred for the value and dignity of Human life is obvious

So because I don't want an innocent human life ended I don't value it or place any dignity upon it? That seems pretty backwards... You know what devalues life and dignity? Sex for pleasure with no care for the consequences followed by a willingness to kill a human life in order to continue having sex for pleasure with no care for the consequences.

And your disregard and demeaning of Human females is obvious.

This isn't about human females to you, it's about unabashed monkey sex with no consequences, no need to lie about it. It would be you who is disregarding and demeaning females by suggesting they're incapable of making rational decisions about sex and the creation of life. If you are 100% against ever having a baby there are many ways to prevent that from happening. If you're not 100% against it, but want to wait, there are methods to accomplish those ends.

I know women are capable of making their decisions themselves. They don't need to kill any babies to accomplish their goals.

Furthermore, every female baby who is aborted didn't get her body or her choice, did she?

In the upcoming election your political party of hypocrites will burn for its ant-female ideology

The third great awakening is happening in America. I don't think this is going to go how you want it to. People are waking up and recognizing the barbarism that is abortion.

One question for you. The moment of conception happens and I, as the father, become financially liable for that baby. I get no say in the matter. Unless, of course, I can convince her to kill that baby (legally through abortion). Why does mom get a say in whether that baby lives or dies but dad does not? What happens if the dad wants the baby and mom does not? That's not unwanted life, is it? So where does that sit in your spectrum of irrational thoughts?

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Duderino

Our own christian fundamentalist version.

Christian Fundamentalism is supposed to be Bible alone. I can't seem to find the New Testament verse that mentions abortion. So-called Fundies are probably following the Papacy then.

But seriously, if Christian men didn't get women pregnant then no Christian abortions or miscarriages would occur. Not even failure of Christian fertilized egg to embed in the uterus.

You'd think that that would be good enough.

Yeah blame the men because everyone knows it only takes the man to get the WOMAN pregnant.. So essentially what you're saying is every sexual encounter between a man and a woman is a rape by a man.

Please get out..

a reply to: Dfairlite


I wonder if those families ("human females" among them) that cannot have children of their own and whom adopt, subscribe to the concept of "unwanted life".

I've heard that even non-Christians have been known to adopt children, as well.

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: Dfairlite


I wonder if those families ("human females" among them) that cannot have children of their own and whom adopt, subscribe to the concept of "unwanted life".

I've heard that even non-Christians have been known to adopt children, as well.

Yeah, if it ever came to it, I don't want to be the forced baby donor for some barren couple. Their infertility is not my problem, and I don't give a rat's ass about that infertility even if I do know them. Plenty of people feel the same -- the unwilling are not your donors.

Furthermore, there's several hundred thousand older kids languishing in the foster system that will never be adopted. Those barren people, the ones with the goods that don't work to make their own but oh-so-desperately want a "family", can adopt THEM, rather than the highly prized newborns they actually want, before we make unwilling people birth even more System Kids.

a reply to: Nyiah


Right.
"To Hell with my unwanted baby...To Hell with the loving parents desperate to adopt her".


I hear you.

originally posted by: IAMTAT
a reply to: Nyiah


Right.
"To Hell with my unwanted baby...To Hell with the loving parents desperate to adopt her".


I hear you.

You're very welcome. Frees up the adoption option for an older, still unwanted child stuck in the system, too. Unless eff 'em, babies are better?

a reply to: Nyiah

Well if they're unwanted, shouldn't we just perform a post-term abortion?