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Likelihood that China is behind Iran issues
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a reply to: CriticalStinker
We encourage the MIC because it keeps our civilization alive and American. If we disband it, the Chinese will use their MIC to force changes to our society and government while the Russians lead a global campaign to take down our allies And usurp liberty with their own coalition. When civilizations clash, as is happening now for over a decade, it is preferable to hope ours comes out victoriously.
And if the average citizen can make a little profit on the side with increased share prices and dividend payouts, well that just a bonus.
We encourage the MIC because it keeps our civilization alive and American. If we disband it, the Chinese will use their MIC to force changes to our society and government while the Russians lead a global campaign to take down our allies And usurp liberty with their own coalition. When civilizations clash, as is happening now for over a decade, it is preferable to hope ours comes out victoriously.
And if the average citizen can make a little profit on the side with increased share prices and dividend payouts, well that just a bonus.
originally posted by: worldstarcountry
a reply to: CriticalStinker
We encourage the MIC because it keeps our civilization alive and American. If we disband it, the Chinese will use their MIC to force changes to our society and government while the Russians lead a global campaign to take down our allies And usurp liberty with their own coalition. When civilizations clash, as is happening now for over a decade, it is preferable to hope ours comes out victoriously.
And if the average citizen can make a little profit on the side with increased share prices and dividend payouts, well that just a bonus.
So let me get this straight.
We couldn't have enjoyed our civilization to the same degree without our 6~ trillion dollar efforts in the Middle East?
And you'll go so far as to say it has benefited us?
This Monday is dragging along, I'll take two of whatever you're on.
a reply to: Tempter
I think you have the right idea, OP.
When Trump introduced the tariffs, it hit the Chinese economy hard. They tried retaliating with tariffs of their own, but it made little difference. Then they came to the bargaining table, but last week they started pulling out of that. So Trump hit them hard with more tariffs.
Iran came into play because Iran sells oil to China. As China's economy falters, so does Iran's... and Russia's, for that matter. It's a triangular arrangement: China has the economy, Russia and Iran have the oil. Russia and Iran are allies to increase their ability to sell their oil; Russia has the technology and manpower, while Iran has the infrastructure. Without Iran, Russia is very limited on who it can sell oil to, and without Russia, Iran is vulnerable militarily and lacks resources.
China wants control of the South China Sea so they have an uninterruptible shipping route from the Persian Gulf. Overland pipelines are not feasible for Iran/China, due to the HImalayan Mountains being in the way. Indonesia contains several countries which could be allied with the US in the event of a war (as evidenced during WWII), so the shipping lane is not secure.
The whole argument between Suadi Arabia and Iran is over two things: religion and money. Iran is Shia; Saudi Arabia is Sunni. Iran has depegged its oil from the US dollar; Saudi Arabia has not (because of an economic friendship with the US that dates back to the early 1900s). Iran hates the US over our early involvement empowering the Shah, and our refusal in the 1970s to turn him over to the coup that restructured Iran's government.
This triangle has built power for decades; Trump is the first US President to take it on. His actions making us energy independent and his diplomacy with Saudi Arabia have dropped oil prices across the globe... this helps China, but it hurts both Russia and Iran. Both countries will collapse economically if China collapses, so Trump's actions against the Chinese economy are seen as an assault on Iran and Russia. The pressure on Iran must be pretty high to get them to start going this far.
TheRedneck
I think you have the right idea, OP.
When Trump introduced the tariffs, it hit the Chinese economy hard. They tried retaliating with tariffs of their own, but it made little difference. Then they came to the bargaining table, but last week they started pulling out of that. So Trump hit them hard with more tariffs.
Iran came into play because Iran sells oil to China. As China's economy falters, so does Iran's... and Russia's, for that matter. It's a triangular arrangement: China has the economy, Russia and Iran have the oil. Russia and Iran are allies to increase their ability to sell their oil; Russia has the technology and manpower, while Iran has the infrastructure. Without Iran, Russia is very limited on who it can sell oil to, and without Russia, Iran is vulnerable militarily and lacks resources.
China wants control of the South China Sea so they have an uninterruptible shipping route from the Persian Gulf. Overland pipelines are not feasible for Iran/China, due to the HImalayan Mountains being in the way. Indonesia contains several countries which could be allied with the US in the event of a war (as evidenced during WWII), so the shipping lane is not secure.
The whole argument between Suadi Arabia and Iran is over two things: religion and money. Iran is Shia; Saudi Arabia is Sunni. Iran has depegged its oil from the US dollar; Saudi Arabia has not (because of an economic friendship with the US that dates back to the early 1900s). Iran hates the US over our early involvement empowering the Shah, and our refusal in the 1970s to turn him over to the coup that restructured Iran's government.
This triangle has built power for decades; Trump is the first US President to take it on. His actions making us energy independent and his diplomacy with Saudi Arabia have dropped oil prices across the globe... this helps China, but it hurts both Russia and Iran. Both countries will collapse economically if China collapses, so Trump's actions against the Chinese economy are seen as an assault on Iran and Russia. The pressure on Iran must be pretty high to get them to start going this far.
TheRedneck
a reply to: yuppa
Not that easy. The bulk of our technology is possible because of rare earth metals. China (and the surrounding countries like North Korea, wink, wink) hold the vast majority of the planet's known resources of those metals. That's why integrated circuits and most solar cells are manufactured in China. The rest of the world has enough for research, but not for manufacturing, and what they have is extremely expensive because it is so rare.
If not for that fact, yes, we could economically crush China like a bug on a windshield. But we need them too... at least, we need what they have.
TheRedneck
Well we could just have other countries manufacturer the stuff china does. That would hurt them very badly and should be done ASAP.
Not that easy. The bulk of our technology is possible because of rare earth metals. China (and the surrounding countries like North Korea, wink, wink) hold the vast majority of the planet's known resources of those metals. That's why integrated circuits and most solar cells are manufactured in China. The rest of the world has enough for research, but not for manufacturing, and what they have is extremely expensive because it is so rare.
If not for that fact, yes, we could economically crush China like a bug on a windshield. But we need them too... at least, we need what they have.
TheRedneck
a reply to: worldstarcountry
The MIC also siphons off billions of dollars for just one thing , the MIC.
I can't help feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.
***Clicks heels together .. there's no place like home , there's no place like home , there's no place ...****
We encourage the MIC because it keeps our civilization alive and American.
The MIC also siphons off billions of dollars for just one thing , the MIC.
I can't help feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.
***Clicks heels together .. there's no place like home , there's no place like home , there's no place ...****
edit on 13-5-2019 by gortex
because: spelling
a reply to: CriticalStinker
We (individuals at the bottom) don't lead our civilization, therefore we do not have a proper full understanding of what resources and actions and market access it takes to keep half a billion citizens content. Whatever end products utilizing finite resources keeps you content may not be composed of the same finite resources that keep others content and keep them from creating civil unrest. Running a civilization is a very delicate process in the modern era.
It used to be you could just throw out loaves of bread at a Colosseum and keep the water running was enough to please the masses. Now we have to keep the internet running, beer and soda on the shelves, a steady supply of wireless headphones to keep the angry youth content with their subversive music (pacification technology), an endless stream of visual stimuli to keep the humans from being angry at real policies and people and sedating their desire for civil unrest, affordable fuel for our increasingly longer travel distances for work and recreation, open access to niche markets etc.. etc..
it is significantly more complicated to keep a civilization stable in the 21st century than it was in the eleventh. As long as the signals continue their attack on the human psyche though, it should be relatively simple for our leadership to continue to fulfill their goals with a pacified, distracted, and apathetic population.
Lets all just drink our beer and soda and keep on watching our sports and play our video games and cease being so concerned for the welfare of our civilization's rivals when confronted with our leaders foreign policy and it should be that much easier to just live in bliss, or at least normality.
Despite all that, it likely will not be too long before this Syria war compilation is an Iran war compilation.
We (individuals at the bottom) don't lead our civilization, therefore we do not have a proper full understanding of what resources and actions and market access it takes to keep half a billion citizens content. Whatever end products utilizing finite resources keeps you content may not be composed of the same finite resources that keep others content and keep them from creating civil unrest. Running a civilization is a very delicate process in the modern era.
It used to be you could just throw out loaves of bread at a Colosseum and keep the water running was enough to please the masses. Now we have to keep the internet running, beer and soda on the shelves, a steady supply of wireless headphones to keep the angry youth content with their subversive music (pacification technology), an endless stream of visual stimuli to keep the humans from being angry at real policies and people and sedating their desire for civil unrest, affordable fuel for our increasingly longer travel distances for work and recreation, open access to niche markets etc.. etc..
it is significantly more complicated to keep a civilization stable in the 21st century than it was in the eleventh. As long as the signals continue their attack on the human psyche though, it should be relatively simple for our leadership to continue to fulfill their goals with a pacified, distracted, and apathetic population.
Lets all just drink our beer and soda and keep on watching our sports and play our video games and cease being so concerned for the welfare of our civilization's rivals when confronted with our leaders foreign policy and it should be that much easier to just live in bliss, or at least normality.
Despite all that, it likely will not be too long before this Syria war compilation is an Iran war compilation.
a reply to: worldstarcountry
You're saying the Middle East was worth it this time around for the tune of 6~ trillion plus interest?
Because of wireless headphones and cheaper fuel? We don't make a vast amount of headphones, other countries do, and we could still buy them without the war.
Also, without the wars, we could be paying less taxes, and I for one could live with an extra dollar or two a gallon so that hundreds of thousands of people didn't have to die for a pointless war (Iraq).
Even if your statement holds true, that some how it enriches the nation, you're skating past the fact that we've been lied to to go into these wars in the first place. That young men truly believe they are defending our country from foreign threats while people here laugh about how it's for resources and say they have stock to make a buck off of it.
The utter detachment is borderline illness.
You're saying the Middle East was worth it this time around for the tune of 6~ trillion plus interest?
Because of wireless headphones and cheaper fuel? We don't make a vast amount of headphones, other countries do, and we could still buy them without the war.
Also, without the wars, we could be paying less taxes, and I for one could live with an extra dollar or two a gallon so that hundreds of thousands of people didn't have to die for a pointless war (Iraq).
Even if your statement holds true, that some how it enriches the nation, you're skating past the fact that we've been lied to to go into these wars in the first place. That young men truly believe they are defending our country from foreign threats while people here laugh about how it's for resources and say they have stock to make a buck off of it.
The utter detachment is borderline illness.
edit on 13-5-2019 by CriticalStinker because: (no reason given)
a reply to: CriticalStinker
no man, your not getting it. It is about the people having the access to a million other day to day things that would otherwise make then angry and violent if they did not have them. Resources go raw from one place, shipped to another for production, and then shipped to a population for pacification of the heart and mind. This is the basis for consumerism, placate all the wants and eliminate the desire to dissent. After a hundred years or so of this from cradle to grave, a population will not so easily be able to just give it all up in the name of peace on Earth or betterment of humanity.
The young hero has all the information he or she needs to determine the true intentions of conflict. They continue to volunteer for the military despite this knowledge. The foreign threat is legit and always has been. The first century of this nations existence was non-stop attacks from European empires. We finally turned the script and went on the offensive at the turn of the 20th. Now the world itself attacks America in the 21st century.
So yes, they are in fact facing legitimate foreign threats. But business is business, and private companies still have to produce things for all sides. When our enemies attack business partners where our interests are concerned, the aggressors need to be dealt with.
no man, your not getting it. It is about the people having the access to a million other day to day things that would otherwise make then angry and violent if they did not have them. Resources go raw from one place, shipped to another for production, and then shipped to a population for pacification of the heart and mind. This is the basis for consumerism, placate all the wants and eliminate the desire to dissent. After a hundred years or so of this from cradle to grave, a population will not so easily be able to just give it all up in the name of peace on Earth or betterment of humanity.
The young hero has all the information he or she needs to determine the true intentions of conflict. They continue to volunteer for the military despite this knowledge. The foreign threat is legit and always has been. The first century of this nations existence was non-stop attacks from European empires. We finally turned the script and went on the offensive at the turn of the 20th. Now the world itself attacks America in the 21st century.
So yes, they are in fact facing legitimate foreign threats. But business is business, and private companies still have to produce things for all sides. When our enemies attack business partners where our interests are concerned, the aggressors need to be dealt with.
a reply to: worldstarcountry
Using soldiers and peoples tax money to directly benefit corporations so we get "reduced cost" (even though we paid for the front end).
Sounds like socialism for corporations.
Using soldiers and peoples tax money to directly benefit corporations so we get "reduced cost" (even though we paid for the front end).
Sounds like socialism for corporations.
a reply to: CriticalStinker
Then I suppose you could call any business deal socialism since one party is subsidizing the other with funds for goods and/or services. National defense however, is a legitimate funding goal of tax money.
Lets just move beyond all the philosophical arguments though and focus on the fact that yes, the Chinese very well may have provided intelligence to the Houthi militia and Iran to carry out this act of sabotage against the UAE who they have threatened with force several times already, and the Saudis who they are actively engaged in war with.
However, the UAE is also supporting General Haftar in Libya from an airbase in the East of the country providing the LNA with drone strike capability against Tripoli, and that is a variable that should not be ignored with how intertwined the conflicts of that region are becoming.
Then I suppose you could call any business deal socialism since one party is subsidizing the other with funds for goods and/or services. National defense however, is a legitimate funding goal of tax money.
Lets just move beyond all the philosophical arguments though and focus on the fact that yes, the Chinese very well may have provided intelligence to the Houthi militia and Iran to carry out this act of sabotage against the UAE who they have threatened with force several times already, and the Saudis who they are actively engaged in war with.
However, the UAE is also supporting General Haftar in Libya from an airbase in the East of the country providing the LNA with drone strike capability against Tripoli, and that is a variable that should not be ignored with how intertwined the conflicts of that region are becoming.
a reply to: worldstarcountry
China pulling some strings is a place I can find agreement with you in theory. I could certainly see that as a possibility.
If they're doing that though, I'd venture to guess it would be to bait us. They would like to see a weaker America, a good way to do that would be to get an over extended country to reach further.
China pulling some strings is a place I can find agreement with you in theory. I could certainly see that as a possibility.
If they're doing that though, I'd venture to guess it would be to bait us. They would like to see a weaker America, a good way to do that would be to get an over extended country to reach further.
a reply to: worldstarcountry
That’s what it’s all about, increasing share prices, dividend payouts and profits except the average person doesn’t actually benefit.
And if the average citizen can make a little profit on the side with increased share prices and dividend payouts, well that just a bonus.
That’s what it’s all about, increasing share prices, dividend payouts and profits except the average person doesn’t actually benefit.
a reply to: Tempter
China has all the factories, all the engineers, the best technology, and the most money and resources. The US will have to start learning how to be 2nd in the World. Just wait when the Yuan is no longer pegged to the dollar 6 to 1. Chinese bankers will rule the Earth!!!
China has all the factories, all the engineers, the best technology, and the most money and resources. The US will have to start learning how to be 2nd in the World. Just wait when the Yuan is no longer pegged to the dollar 6 to 1. Chinese bankers will rule the Earth!!!
a reply to: TheRedneck
For now but when we perfect the new PC tech we can avoid them,and its not that far off. Expecially with graphene circuits.
For now but when we perfect the new PC tech we can avoid them,and its not that far off. Expecially with graphene circuits.
a reply to: surfer_soul
Er, the average person has a 401k or IRA that is likely invested in mutual funds. That does benefit from increasing stock prices and dividends. The average person has a job at one of these corporations, and they will certainly not get a pay raise if that corporation doesn't make money. It takes all kinds of people to make an economy work: the wealthy to invest, the middle class to do the work, and even the poor to do the jobs the middle class won't do. The relationship is symbiotic; kill one class and you kill all of them.
I won't go so far as to say all those wars were beneficial. I like to at least think we would have prospered even without them. But that is the past and we don't get to change it. The real question, the only question that matters is, where do we go from here? Asking where do we go from somewhere else is silly.
TheRedneck
except the average person doesn’t actually benefit.
Er, the average person has a 401k or IRA that is likely invested in mutual funds. That does benefit from increasing stock prices and dividends. The average person has a job at one of these corporations, and they will certainly not get a pay raise if that corporation doesn't make money. It takes all kinds of people to make an economy work: the wealthy to invest, the middle class to do the work, and even the poor to do the jobs the middle class won't do. The relationship is symbiotic; kill one class and you kill all of them.
I won't go so far as to say all those wars were beneficial. I like to at least think we would have prospered even without them. But that is the past and we don't get to change it. The real question, the only question that matters is, where do we go from here? Asking where do we go from somewhere else is silly.
TheRedneck
originally posted by: worldstarcountry
a reply to: CriticalStinker
The individual I responded to has made no secret of his or her open disdain of the us government. Making uncorroborated allegations s that our government is 100% behind every act does not seem to indicate a love of our government. In fact, rhetoric of that nature could indicate and extremist mind set, possibly even subversive.
Well, considering your governments have been responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent men, women and children due to ilegal wars and invasions , in the last two decades alone.
What is there to like?
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