The Eighth -- Augustus

It is my strong belief that Jesus campaigned to become the next Caesar, and not only that, but it is also my firm belief that Jesus was the grandson of Julius Caesar and that his father Joseph was in fact Caesarion, the Prince of Egypt. However, Jesus was not in luck, since he reacted to rumours that the emperor was dead in 36AD (which he wasn't, he lasted another year), and ended up nailed to a tree for treason, but with support from the Roman soldiers, an influential uncle, a wealthy man, a weaver girl and a handful others, he survived Golgotha.

In 450 BC the first month of the year was moved from March to January, transforming the sixth month (Sextilis, later renamed Augustus) into the eighth month, and Julius Caesar further fixed the calendar by adding a few days and calibrating and intercalating the whole calendar system. In 8 BC Sextilis was renamed Augustus after the name of the false emperor who took power upon the assassination of Julius Caesar, namely, Augustus Caesar.

When Revelation calls the Beast itself -- the Eighth -- it is likely a subtle reference to Augustus and his fellows, the false Emperors of the Roman Empire.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
The point of "eight" is more likely to be that it is an unwanted addition to the sacred number "seven", just as "thirteen" is an unwanted addition to the sacred number "twelve".

a reply to: DISRAELI

Disagree, there is no foundation to your claim. In fact, in Hebrew the seven tone Do-re-mi scale is only completed when you add the first note last, which was called the Sheminith, that can be seen in the marginalia of Psalms. Eight was a sacred number as well as 13. The fact that there are seven whole notes in the Sheminith (completed with the octave, which is last, but also the first), there are 12 half tones in the extended 12 note chromatic scale (completed with a 13th octave). 8 and 13 are not unwanted, they are the perfect completions. The first and the last, the sacred, God. Also note how both 8 and 13 are Fibonacci numbers....

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So all the history recorded in the bible, all the genealogy from Adam to Mary His mother and genealogy of Joseph is all wrong because, what YouTube?
Throw in not once does Jesus argue or fight, not even question Roman authority.
Nowhere does He claim earthly superiority, noble heritage, outside of King David’s lineage but you, whoever you are Utnap, you know more than everyone else because
That rumours a ceaser was dead, what more YouTube?
Where do you get this stuff?
What YouTube?

Your strong belief usurps written history and what, you want people to believe it
Without a YouTube link, unlikely

en.m.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So all the history recorded in the bible, all the genealogy from Adam to Mary His mother and genealogy of Joseph is all wrong because, what YouTube?
Throw in not once does Jesus argue or fight, not even question Roman authority.
Nowhere does He claim earthly superiority, noble heritage, outside of King David’s lineage but you, whoever you are Utnap, you know more than everyone else because
That rumours a ceaser was dead, what more YouTube?
Where do you get this stuff?
What YouTube?

Your strong belief usurps written history and what, you want people to believe it
Without a YouTube link, unlikely

en.m.wikipedia.org...

I'm surprised that you mention Youtube like that, it speaks more about how you are upset about the proposed ideas than what the person proposing them is about the accepted reality. Throwing YouTube like this only makes you look like you did not had a solid, consistent argument and so you fall back to kiddie stuff

Leaving Youtube to the side, and other than the Bible, can you show some proof that what you believe it's the truth? You know.. with actual facts not coming from the same book as usual?

Because you must be aware that saying "i believe this and here's the proof because this book where i read it tells it so" is not really how you define a fact or reality, and is absolutely not a way to find any truth, as any religion would expect you to do

a reply to: Malisa

I am somewhat disappointed in your position
If I don’t use the bible then I have to discount Jesus altogether so logically your argument telling me to discount the bible becomes redundant
Outside the bible, a few secular documents nobody would have ever known about Jesus, so, what’s the point?

The op has a very baseless argument, maybe a YouTube video may have helped their argument but we didn’t even get to see that, hence my constant reference to YouTube

See when you offer a book, YouTube link, even a blog, you offer something that may support an opinion, nothing, not even a clown blabbing and blowing up balloons was offered, an opinion with not a drop of supporting fact or assumption

I have a faith in Christ, it a faith, it’s a belief supported by the bible, holds historical fact and some myth, teachings, great teachings, unique teachings. Followed by people from the day the gospels were preached, Jesus spoke.
I am not offering evidence

What I asked the op for was a YouTube video, anything but their opinion about a man who was recorded to be nothing like his imagination ran away with.

And your comment, well no bible no Jesus, pointless really

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
It is my strong belief that Jesus campaigned to become the next Caesar, and not only that, but it is also my firm belief that Jesus was the grandson of Julius Caesar and that his father Joseph was in fact Caesarion, the Prince of Egypt.

There's some problems with this... one of them being that he was executed when he was 17 years old.

However, Jesus was not in luck, since he reacted to rumours that the emperor was dead in 36AD (which he wasn't, he lasted another year), and ended up nailed to a tree for treason, but with support from the Roman soldiers, an influential uncle, a wealthy man, a weaver girl and a handful others, he survived Golgotha. -

By 36 AD, Caesarion would have been 80 years old.

Somebody would have noticed that Jesus was a very very old man.

And Caesarion wasn't a carpenter.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Malisa

I am somewhat disappointed in your position
If I don’t use the bible then I have to discount Jesus altogether so logically your argument telling me to discount the bible becomes redundant
Outside the bible, a few secular documents nobody would have ever known about Jesus, so, what’s the point?

The op has a very baseless argument, maybe a YouTube video may have helped their argument but we didn’t even get to see that, hence my constant reference to YouTube

See when you offer a book, YouTube link, even a blog, you offer something that may support an opinion, nothing, not even a clown blabbing and blowing up balloons was offered, an opinion with not a drop of supporting fact or assumption

I have a faith in Christ, it a faith, it’s a belief supported by the bible, holds historical fact and some myth, teachings, great teachings, unique teachings. Followed by people from the day the gospels were preached, Jesus spoke.
I am not offering evidence

What I asked the op for was a YouTube video, anything but their opinion about a man who was recorded to be nothing like his imagination ran away with.

And your comment, well no bible no Jesus, pointless really

If you need a book to find guidance, then you are completely lost. A book was not written by God, but by humans interpreting, in all their mighty ignorance, what the God they thought they knew said. And it went down from there on

If you want to understand God, you don't need a book, or a Youtube video to tell you what to feel or think. The answer lies, as you probably know, away in silence from all that crap

I don't respect any book, it's ridiculous. "No bible No Jesus? Then you have nothing in this world, or the next, you are trapped in what whoever designed that book lead you to believe, you are so much far away from the truth that i could not even begin to explain

I'm sorry you are disappointed in me, but i'm also in you, because i can't believe you chose words written by who knows who instead of plain, simple, actual and factual truth sitting right there in front of your eyes

Further, rising from the Ocean of Time or «Seas of El» (lit. «El Ha-yam», mistranslated into Elohim), Lamech was the eighth son of the sacred seven; El/JHVH/Father, Adam/Man, Cain, Enoch, Irad, Mehujael and Methushael. Lamech, who according to tradition killed Cain, the Son of Man, believing he was a beast of the forest, was himself the Eighth and he took two wives and was what you might call a friggin' maniac. He tried to change the whole system of 7 and 12, attempting to seize power as God, Man and Son of Man and restart the cycle with him as the patriarchal god, giving birth to two sons like Adam did and prophesying a vengeful oath to replace God's oath with his own, and splitting the line of firstborns, as well as killing Cain his own patriarch. Thus he turned the line of seven into a line of ten/eleven and seven/eight, with himself as «The Eighth», a splitter and a false prophet. Obviously, being from a certain bloodline doesn't protect you from being a twat. And being a complete and utter male fatale won't have you blotted out from the the bloodline.

Cain, the son of Adam (Son of Man), was killed by his own. Jesus, like The Son of Man, was killed by his own. The system is replicated over and over, and it all sums up to musical theory, the highest form of science in Antiquity (and most likely for as long as they had chronicles for).

In the other line of kings in early Genesis, we find Abel's firstborns in the line of Seth who was born to be his brother's keeper to continue the bloodline of Abel; JHVH/Father, Adam/Man, Abel, Seth, Enosh, Kenan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech and Noah. Twelve. Now Shem (his name reflects Hashem, the Name of God) is the 13th in this line, and the first patriarch of Noah's new feudal system introduced after the Flood. Thirteen.

These number systems show up all over the place in the biblical narrative. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
It is my strong belief that Jesus campaigned to become the next Caesar, and not only that, but it is also my firm belief that Jesus was the grandson of Julius Caesar and that his father Joseph was in fact Caesarion, the Prince of Egypt.

There's some problems with this... one of them being that he was executed when he was 17 years old.

Well, his body was never accounted for. It's happened before. I believe he managed to sneak away, went into exile and took the name Joseph, a name that reflects his title as Prince of Egypt.

However, Jesus was not in luck, since he reacted to rumours that the emperor was dead in 36AD (which he wasn't, he lasted another year), and ended up nailed to a tree for treason, but with support from the Roman soldiers, an influential uncle, a wealthy man, a weaver girl and a handful others, he survived Golgotha.

By 36 AD, Caesarion would have been 80 years old.

Somebody would have noticed that Jesus was a very very old man.

And Caesarion wasn't a carpenter.

Joseph (Caesarion) fathered Jesus and fits right in with how Joseph would have been in his 40s when Jesus was born, exactly as tradition goes. Houses were built in stone in the area where Jesus built his house. Thus he wasn't a carpenter, but a stone-mason. And who were the most amazing stone-masons of all time? Oh well, Egypt.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you really need a book to tell you how to see? or you just open your eyes and eveeything is there..

I don't get it, I dont get religion at all. There is no need whatsoever

a reply to: Malisa

Oh poor you, I am so disappointed in you, that must feel bad
But that is not what I said
I said I was disappointed in your position, obviously pertaining to the issue

As for the rest of your so so silly argument re a “book”
Would you prefer Mein Kampf, maybe the “second sex” , maybe the origin of species by means of natural selection blah blah blah, anything by Freud, any school text you know what they teach kids with at school
I am disappointed in more than your position at the beginning of this discussion, I am now more disappointed in your education than your original position
I am guessing marvel movies and Disney cartoons have been your major influences than a dictionary instead of Einstein’s “meaning of relativity” or Kierkegaard on philosophy and existentialism

Maybe we should sit down and read the communist manifesto, hey? It’s a book, be better we avoid that one. Burn it?

Let’s burn books we don’t respect any books”, heil crystal night”. Not that you would understand crystal night, it’s in a book, might have had to read a book and we know you hate them

Well done, you win

originally posted by: Malisa
a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you really need a book to tell you how to see? or you just open your eyes and eveeything is there..

I don't get it, I dont get religion at all. There is no need whatsoever

It’s pretty clear to me and many others around here just by reading your opinion, there is a lot more you don’t get
I suggest start off by reading books

As for religion, as a Christian, there is no need for religion but why I say that is based on a belief, reason and logic and many books, not pig headed arrogance soaked in ignorance

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You might find this interesting:

It is easy to dismiss Caesar's Messiah with the wave of hand. But if you have an open mind, it's like seeing animals in the clouds. There just seems to be too much collaborating information where one could think "maybe". Consider the following extremely well-written synopsis on the work:

"Let's just go back to the drawing board, leave aside all of the assumptions of Christian history, look at the texts afresh, consider every possibility, and open the whole game up. By doing that we'll see that Christianity is really paganism by a different name.

Some of the Bible scholars are mavericks working outside the restrictions of mainstream religious institutions. This allows them the freedom to provide fresh insights and draw some startling conclusions about how Christianity was formed.

And for Joseph Atwill the key lies in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the only Jewish literature ever discovered from the first century AD or CE... the time Jesus would have been preaching among the Jews. The characters in the Dead Sea Scrolls were militaristic and you can see that this movement wanted to push the foreigners out of Israel; they were fundamentalists, whereas the characters of the Gospels are different.

They're pacifistic, they're turning the other cheek, they're giving the Caesar what is Caesar's. How did a movement like Christianity come to exist in a region that was occupied by Roman soldiers and had Jewish zealots within it that were going to push these Romans out? How was that possible?

Joseph began studying the other two major works of that era, The 'New testament' and the 'Wars of the Jews' by Josephus, a Roman court historian who described the war between the Romans and the Jews in the first century. While reading these works side by side he noticed an amazing connection between them.

Certain events from the ministry of Jesus seem to closely parallel episodes from the military campaign of Titus Flavius. A campaign which took place forty years after Jesus supposedly lived. Joseph's efforts to understand these connections led him to an incredible discovery. Christianity had been invented by a little known family of Roman Caesars, the Flavians, and they left us documents to prove it."

It's very hard to argue with Atwill's argument in regards to 40 typological associations all in the same sequence between the two literally works compared in his study.

Top Documentary Films Caesars Messiah

Here's the documentary:



By doing a comparison reading of The

"Josephus recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the first century CE and the First Jewish–Roman War (66-70 CE)[7], including the Siege of Masada. His most important works were The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94).[8] The Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Roman occupation. Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective for an ostensibly Greek and Roman audience. These works provide valuable insight into first century Judaism and the background of Early Christianity.[8]"

Josephus

"Caesar’s Messiah is a 2005 book by Joseph Atwill, which argues that the New Testament Gospels were written as wartime propaganda by scholars connected to the Roman imperial court of the Flavian emperors: Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. According to Atwill, their primary purpose in creating the religion was to control the spread of Judaism and moderate its political virulence. The Jewish nationalist Zealots had been defeated in the First Jewish–Roman War of 70 AD, but Judaism remained an influential movement throughout the Mediterranean region. Atwill argues that the biblical character Jesus Christ is a typological representation of the Roman Emperor Titus."

Caesar's Messiah

I think this is the paragraph I find most interesting in all the commentary on this work:

"And for Joseph Atwill the key lies in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the only Jewish literature ever discovered from the first century AD or CE... the time Jesus would have been preaching among the Jews. The characters in the Dead Sea Scrolls were militaristic and you can see that this movement wanted to push the foreigners out of Israel; they were fundamentalists, whereas the characters of the Gospels are different.

They're pacifistic, they're turning the other cheek, they're giving the Caesar what is Caesar's. How did a movement like Christianity come to exist in a region that was occupied by Roman soldiers and had Jewish zealots within it that were going to push these Romans out? How was that possible?"

The Middle East is not known for pacifism!It just seems to me religion would be the vehicle to deliver propaganda to a people at the time. If the people have a culture of rebellion then replace it with a culture of "turn the other cheek" and "give Caesar what is Caesar's". It just seems to me the Gospels really could be war-time occupational propaganda invented by the Romans. It's just seems possible to me.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It is my strong belief that Jesus campaigned to become the next Caesar

It would be more likely that he was attempting to become "King of the Jews" or maybe even "King of United Kingdom of Judea and Samaria".

Herod the Great was the King of the Jews, appointed by the Senate of Rome while in Rome. After his death Herod Archelaus became ethnarch (a ruler of an ethnic group) by Caesar Augustus after Archelaus went to Rome. He reigned for 9 years only(circa 4 BC to 6 AD), then Rome took direct control.

luke 19:12 “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to lay claim to his kingship and then return."

That's the way kingships happened. Go to Rome, present the case to Caesar or the Senate, return as king if successful. Or have an agent appeal for a pretender to the throne.

a reply to: dfnj2015

It's very hard to argue with Atwill's argument in regards to 40 typological associations all in the same sequence between the two literally works compared in his study.

Since you like to copy paste the same debunked theory over and over, here is my copy paste reply :

Actually no. The Ceasar´s Messiah theory was debunked many times. It simply holds no water. One of the biggest problems this theory has is the existence of Christianity before 73 AD, when Atwill says that the idea was concocted by the Romans. Quite simply, if Christianity can be demonstrated to exist before that time, this theory is toast.

Take for example the famous historian Tacitus who says that Nero was persecuting Christians in Rome in 64 AD. He also mentions that "immense multitudes" of Christians were living in Rome at the time. Try to figure out why "immense multitudes" of Christians are in Rome ten years before Christianity was supposed to have been invented.?

Here is another logical problem with the theory. Why in the world would the Romans do this? They had already totally crushed the Jews in 70 AD, destroying the city and the temple.

When the Romans had a problem with people not wanting to conform to their rules, which they did often, they did what they do best: crush people into submission with war. And those who rebelled were crucified. There was never any need to do anything different, especially at this point in their history. Also, consider that the Jews weren't even a threat to them in any meaningful way.

Here is the video and a segment synopsis : Refuting Joseph Atwills Book Caesars Messiah

Segment 1 (0:00) – Caesar’s Messiah by Joseph Atwill posits that Rome’s Flavian’s used Josephus to make up the whole account of Jesus. How to refute this ridiculousness. Christians were getting persecuted 61 AD before the theory was even supposed to have been written 73 AD. The history is inconsistent. Why would the Romans need to do this? They wouldn’t. The Jews weren’t a threat.

Segment 2 (8:30) – Atwill’s ludicrous misappropriating of the Scriptures where he twists the Word to mean what he wants it to mean.

Segment 3 (18:29) – More refutations of Atwill’s book. People have been trying to debunk the Bible for over 2000 years and yet here it still stands!

Peace

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Malisa
a reply to: Raggedyman

Do you really need a book to tell you how to see? or you just open your eyes and eveeything is there..

I don't get it, I dont get religion at all. There is no need whatsoever

It’s pretty clear to me and many others around here just by reading your opinion, there is a lot more you don’t get
I suggest start off by reading books

This is the classic opinion of someone who doesn't have anything of value to add, you are just trying to insult by suggesting me to "read books", like it would not be obvious what you actually mean, low grade insults like that are a thing of middle school

And don't try to hide behind "many others", that's what kids do in school as well, when they are unable to cope with reality. Who doesn't need some help from equal minds someone they could not beat on their own LOL

As for religion, as a Christian, there is no need for religion but why I say that is based on a belief, reason and logic and many books,

Again the books, which ones, the bible? Other books designed to fill in the brain washing loopholes and lead you away from questioning the obvious issues?

What logic? Can you reply with logic to what i said? Why did you chose to write some weak insults otherwise?

Why are you angry i said that? I wanted a logical response to it, all i got was the response of a kid in middle school i had not heard in at least 10 years

not pig headed arrogance soaked in ignorance

So funny, because that's all your reply means in the end

I feel like you are trying to suppress some other insults, based on how angry you are and how you tried to weakly disguise it. But it's ok, nothing you can say could even possibly harm me or my soul or identity

Anyway, long story short, you could have said something with actual knowledge to dismiss my opinion and show me how I was wrong, instead you chose to told me to "read books" and that you and many others think i'm dumb

If that's how your Christian religion works and how you grow wise and calm and pure of soul i think i'm going to pass

Remember when Sayra told you about how she got slapped for asking questions at the church, on her first visit when she was 13? Yeah i read that thread, see this is kind of the same, someone questions and points something out, next thing is you reacting by getting angry and insulting instead of trying to make sense of the entire thing and coming up with an actual wise answer

I guess the wisdom is just not there, because repeating a million times the same lines in prayers doesn't lead to anything but a zombie brain. There's no wisdom that can be earned by repeating words over and over and over until everything stops making sense and turns into a ridiculous ritual-like practice that is so ingrained into your minds you just can't figure out how to live without it anymore

I find this conversation entirely pointless now, so bye

a reply to: Malisa

I say “many others” like you know, him ahh a library, text books, historical books, school books, dictionaries and all the others we learn from
By all the people who learned from books
I could even reference the importance of books from a book but you won’t read it

If you don’t get it I can’t help
Suppress anger, kinda like you suppressing intelligence by making inane comments

You don’t like books, sorry for you
I didn’t slap you, I am suggesting you go read some books

And I think I have been gentle to a petulant child who seems to know everything but nothing

Do I pray repeated prayer, how do you know. Do you think I am a catholic, are all Christians catholic to you, read a book and find out what protestants believe, maybe do a YouTube video

Pay attention carefully, if you think books are dumb then yes, it is a reflection on how I perceive you and your intelligence. Many years I have had to reflect and learn on that.

And don’t play the “I pass on christianity because of you” card, that was evident from the start.
Childish games indeed



Now again, I dismiss your opinion and I suggest you go read some books, get back to me when you have.

under pope constantine the bible was re-composed to gain power over the population
not for nothing they left out certain books ...like the one of Maria Magdalena and others
just becouse there greed….
the bible as we know it is the vision of an pope … not jesus !

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
It is my strong belief that Jesus campaigned to become the next Caesar, and not only that, but it is also my firm belief that Jesus was the grandson of Julius Caesar and that his father Joseph was in fact Caesarion, the Prince of Egypt.

There's some problems with this... one of them being that he was executed when he was 17 years old.

Well, his body was never accounted for. It's happened before. I believe he managed to sneak away, went into exile and took the name Joseph, a name that reflects his title as Prince of Egypt.

Since Octavian had him executed (and it wasn't a death by ambush or in battle), that means he had been held in a jail and that his identity and death was confirmed by a number of people.

Joseph was well known, as was his parentage.

And Caesarion wasn't a carpenter.

Joseph (Caesarion) fathered Jesus and fits right in with how Joseph would have been in his 40s when Jesus was born, exactly as tradition goes. Houses were built in stone in the area where Jesus built his house. Thus he wasn't a carpenter, but a stone-mason. And who were the most amazing stone-masons of all time? Oh well, Egypt.

Well, no... and no. Carpenters might live in stone houses, but they did wood framing and construction work (and roofing work as well.) He wasn't a stone mason. And Egyptians were hardly the most amazing stonemasons of all time - by the time of the reign of the Ptolemies, Rome was better at it, building high domed buildings and long stretches of aquaducts with delicate arches that still stand today.

And pharaohs weren't trained in manual skills that take years to be good at. He would have had the rudiments of military tactics, been able to read and write (perhaps more than one language) and would have been taught weaponry. But he'd lack the necessary strength to be a good stonemason or carpenter.

I don't know that he'd convert. He functioned as a High Priest of Egypt and was worshiped as a deity. If he had escaped execution, he could have used this power and position to attempt to launch a comeback, as his other family members did.

As a fugitive and unknown, he'd not have a lot of support anywhere. While the Jews assimilated people from other areas and religions, Caesarion would have been a "gerem" if he converted -- but this wouldn't give him the right to the lineage that was presented in the Bible. "gerem" He might have gotten work as a tutor, but I don't see a soft-living 20-something showing up to a village and trying to get on as an apprentice to a stonemason or carpenter (who usually took young boys as apprentices)