Atlantis and Classified Archaeology

I've been happily reading Yet Another Book About Atlantis called Imagining Atlantis by Richard Ellis, Knopf NY 1998. Happily, until something on page 81 made my hair stand up:

With Harold Edgerton of MIT as part of the expedition...

Doc Edgerton? MIT Professor, well known for inventing the Strobe flashtube, less well known for inventing the triggering systems for nukes, even less well-known for founding EG&G, Inc. that, among other things, runs many of the US WMD facilities worldwide. And even less well known for, well, you aren't cleared for that. You get the picture: one of the chief spooks was poking around the Mediterranean in 1965 looking for (giggles) Atlantis.

Official interest. On the record. On going. With deep black connections.

My interest is rekindled. Let me know what you find.



[edit on 2-3-2005 by Chakotay]

perphaps this quote from your wikipedia link has just a little to do with it don't you think.

His work was instrumental in the development of side-scan sonar technology, used to scan the sea floor for wrecks. Edgerton worked with the undersea explorer Jacques Cousteau. Edgerton participated in the discovery of the American Civil War battleship USS Monitor.

Definitely. The point is, there is a world of black archaeology. From the earliest days of the Indian Wars the US govt has been scientifically collecting, cataloging and storing huge quantities of material worldwide. This process continues today in Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. One of the Roswell accounts has a team of archaeologists finding a UFO. When this kind of collecting goes on in a classified facility (Area 51) or during a classified mission, the archaeology too can go black.

And here we have Doc admitedly searching for Atlantis.

There are at least two areas of official interest that I have heard of: anomalous ancient technology (OOPARTS/catastrophism), and potential alien artifacts (paleoseti).

Ever been slapped with a secrecy order on a dig? Are there 'cleared' archaeology teams? Are there regs printed for commanders to deal with the discovery of 'stuff' during ops?

There has been at least one war fought over artifacts. Admiral Nelson and Napoleon fought the Battle of Egypt over the Rosetta Stone. The industrial revolution followed.

[edit on 2-3-2005 by Chakotay]

Originally posted by Chakotay

And even less well known for, well, you aren't cleared for that.


[edit on 2-3-2005 by Chakotay]

I have the highest security clearence! tell me!!!

[edit on 3/3/05 by Atomix]

This is interseting, but how is it 'official interest'? He's a reseacher for MIT, not a government official. Perhaps its just a quibble. Certainly interseting tho.

"Black archaeology"???? Ala Indiana Jones?

Just because they replicated what a lot of other researchers said -- "no Atlantis there"?

I thought this was consistant with the theory you favored.

Hi Byrd. No, what I'm running into in my research is a lot of worldwide covert underwater exploration beginning in the sixties, under the auspices of black budget contractors. Such as Howard Hughes' Glomar, Inc. and Doc Edgerton's EG&G, Inc.- Doc even got grant money from National Geographic for some of the Atlantis expeditions- imagine if you and I put in a grant to 'search for Atlantis'

The fact that they were drilling core samples and making side-looking sonar maps of objects under the seafloor is not surprising; the open admission that they were searching for Atlantis is. You see, Byrd, I am like you- skeptical of claims of Atlantis. We only have Plato, and some Indian legends. Nothing concrete. But I want to believe.

Now we know that Hughes was busy salvaging wrecked Russian subs, lost atomic bombs and so on under the cover of Glomar (Global Marine). Admiral Inman (Bobby Ray Inman of JPL) oversaw the operations. Super black ops.

Was Edgerton looking for Atlantis? For real? Or was this a cover for some kind of op? Don't tell me, I don't want to know.

A lot of the Glomar and Edgerton stuff still has not seen the light of day.

A geologist friend at USGS has seen tons of stuff that he still can't discuss from back then; research on asteroid impact, catastrophism, the georeactor, even stuff off-planet (USGS has a planetary research division).

My point is, there is classified geology. We know that. Of course, many of the sciences do classified research, but I had never thought seriously about classified archaeology.

I can see two possibilities for black budget archaeology.

First, (and most innocent), if construction of a black facility is begun- and artifacts are found- would a team be called in to catalog the site before construction continued, as happens in road construction? I could see some branch of Army History Command showing up, for example. Data gathered might never reach open scientific journals.

Second, if Doc was really looking for Atlantis, there might be a deeper interest in catastrophist legends in the black world than we realize.

And if there is, what we believe about the history of the human race may be all wrong.

Such black data could be a few Shoshone arrowheads from Area 51, or fossilized Vimana from Roswell. In either case, what we know may not be all there is to know. Why keep it hushed up? I can think of three reasons: first, if you find arrowheads at a facility that doesn't exist, well, you can't talk about it; if you find Atlantis- and it is advanced- then you maintain technological advantage and limit social implications (Brookings) by shutting up.

I would never have considered the possibility seriously if I had not discovered Doc's links to Atlantis.

If you're digging, and the Air Force shows up and whisks you off to Cheyenne Mountain, smile when you remember I told you so.

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Chakotay]

Maybe it is classfied artifacts because archaeology is a variation of anthropology which is the study of cultures.....wait...ah....The cultural aspect of advanced civilizations prior to our time continium enables a world super power to aquire knowledge/ideas/etc to stay a super power. Ofcourse an economy relies on developments but at the moment we are developing our own technology, or are we just building on the previous technology of past cultures? Its obvious they never had electric in Egypt or did they? (Yes they did but never utilized it to a great extent) Your theory of black archaeology has a solid base from which to argue. There are many items from the ancient world which are perpelexing to scientists and they are of public knowledge but it takes some effort to find information on them. In Egypt a vase was found that was able to conduct electricity and then there was an artifact (I forget what its called) that was found in an ancient vessel in the black sea(?) which was engineered so well that scientists are perplexed by it. I remember reading that its engineering was on such a miniature level that it wouldn't even be able to engineer today and that they don't know what it was used for.

Update: Found this:
paranormal.about.com...

[edit on 3-3-2005 by National Security Agency]

eeh hee im related to admiral nelson

chakotay I just gave you one of my way above votes for the month.
Honestly unlike most atlantis and the pyramids are ancient superweapons that predict the apocalypse by the number of bricks in them threads, I didn't feel stupider for having read your thread.
You bring up several valid points about the nature of classified work and the companies who carry it out. I look forward to seeing this thread develop.

Nothing......................sorry

[edit on 4-3-2005 by National Security Agency]

I don't think it's terribly plausible, Chakotay. The Glomar couldn't stay very covert ... we knew about it. And (I'm taking a course on grant writing) you can get a grant for almost anything (or could) if you put the right spin on it and run it past the right people.

Nowadays it's almost impossible to get a grant through the system.

Originally posted by Chakotay
Now we know that Hughes was busy salvaging wrecked Russian subs, lost atomic bombs and so on under the cover of Glomar (Global Marine). Admiral Inman (Bobby Ray Inman of JPL) oversaw the operations. Super black ops.

Right. And the secrecy didn't last very long.

A lot of the Glomar and Edgerton stuff still has not seen the light of day.

A geologist friend at USGS has seen tons of stuff that he still can't discuss from back then; research on asteroid impact, catastrophism, the georeactor, even stuff off-planet (USGS has a planetary research division).

My point is, there is classified geology. We know that. Of course, many of the sciences do classified research, but I had never thought seriously about classified archaeology.

I'm still... dubious, but would like to talk to some original sources, here.

First, (and most innocent), if construction of a black facility is begun- and artifacts are found- would a team be called in to catalog the site before construction continued, as happens in road construction? I could see some branch of Army History Command showing up, for example. Data gathered might never reach open scientific journals.

Okay... I can see that. That makes sense.

Second, if Doc was really looking for Atlantis, there might be a deeper interest in catastrophist legends in the black world than we realize.

But they're looking in the wrong place for Atlantis. There are theories about the filling of the Mediterranean, but they're hardly secret and hardly catastrophic.

Such black data could be a few Shoshone arrowheads from Area 51, or fossilized Vimana from Roswell.

I'd SERIOUSLY doubt that there's a temple roof in Roswell (they're too easy to spot and someone would have seen them long before... and as I recall, that's the wrong place for Shoshone.

If you're digging, and the Air Force shows up and whisks you off to Cheyenne Mountain, smile when you remember I told you so.

Oh, I'm likely to get into all sorts of trouble with the military...

Firstly I am no great expert on either archeaology or Atlantis but I did study Archaeology for a while and I may have mentioned before that the reaction toward anyone who mentioned Atlantis or any other left field theories was largely hostile. The staff especially were not prepared to even engage in theoretical discussions on non-mainstream topics. I am sure that this has a lo to do with professianal credibility but it does seem a poor attitude for a branch of science which relies so much upon theories and stories to explain 'evidence'.

Chakotay, your logic doesn't make any sense to me.

You see some sort of correlation between a guy who works on high speed physics applications and, because of his efforts on side-scan photography, is also interested in using that stuff to find underwater things?

C'mon, bud! I have taken hundreds of pictures of desert wildflowers, some of which have even been published; and I have written several tunes for the band I'm in, some of which have actually been recorded and released.

But I've also spent thirty years in the aerospace and defense industry, including working on classified programs.

Based on that, what can we derive as the real meaning on some of those Red Mountain Bluegrass Band songs or the hidden code in the aloe flowers?

Nothing, Chakotay; nothing.







[edit on 6-3-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Black archaeology certainly does exist. Two recent cases come to mind both pertaining the the Phoenicians. A female archaeologist uncovered a massive find of human remains and promptly lost her discovery as it was taken over and assigned to another team. Bob Ballard had spent months mapping a certain part of the Mediterranean and having spotted what he was looking for, a Phoenician ship left the area to gather a research team and return later. According to him, the Egyptian government denied him access to the area without providing a plausible explanation.

Somewhere, just because a government steps in and keeps foreign researchers from digging up stuff in its territorial waters does not mean that it's 'black archaeology'; just that the government of Egypt wants to control their stuff, like the way they did with the archaeologists working outside the Alexandria breakwater a couple of years ago.

we dont know the reason for governments or private organizations taking over a dig, or a deposit, or a discovery.

As far as EG&G, we did work for them, they were bought out by a Construction company in San Francisco and they moved offices to new location. They are into everything anyone here can imagine. Fascinating company.

After you spend your life creating companies like EGG, it might be fun to get out and play in the water a bit and see whats out there.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Somewhere, just because a government steps in and keeps foreign researchers from digging up stuff in its territorial waters does not mean that it's 'black archaeology'; just that the government of Egypt wants to control their stuff, like the way they did with the archaeologists working outside the Alexandria breakwater a couple of years ago.

You are correct, it does not mean it is black at all, it means it is now taken over by a group which has every intention to allow independent archaeologists on site and to release all findings to the general public.

What on earth was I thinking really? My that would suggest we know everything there is to know about what goes on behind governmental doors and these sites.

How many years now have we been waiting for the translations of all the Dead Sea Scrolls, since the IAA took control? The egyptian authorites tossing out on their ears the fellows who found the 2nd door in the great pyramid and assigning the research elsewhere how many years ago, and we have learned nothing since?

No, no black archaelogy at all, the government is up front and honest.

Just found another reason digs could go black. This one gives me the creeps. Page 245 of Imagining Atlantis by Ellis:

Alexander Langmuir of Johns Hopkins, the epidemiologist who (with his colleagues) proposed the name "Thucydides syndrome," suggested influenza complicated by toxic shock as the cause of the Athenian plague...

Yikes. If one digs up the wrong mummy on the wrong day, all heck could break out.

Nice pics, OTS...

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Black archaeology certainly does exist. Two recent cases come to mind both pertaining the the Phoenicians. A female archaeologist uncovered a massive find of human remains and promptly lost her discovery as it was taken over and assigned to another team.

Got a source on this one?

Bob Ballard had spent months mapping a certain part of the Mediterranean and having spotted what he was looking for, a Phoenician ship left the area to gather a research team and return later. According to him, the Egyptian government denied him access to the area without providing a plausible explanation.

Because it was in Egypt's territorial waters. The Egyptians (after centuries of dealing with the problem) are tired of folks coming in and digging up their ancient sites and looting them. There's a number of rules to be followed (including, I think, hiring Egyptians) and only a limited number of licenses granted.

The same issue exists with Native American remains here in the US. They don't want anybody and their dog digging up the ancestors and they don't permit anybody to go off and dig old pueblos or other sites. One dig whose material I worked on was shut off because they did find indications that there was a Native American burial on it.

...and Somewhere, how did you miss the translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls? And the display of them? I think photos/scans of the text are also available online in addition to the translations listed here:
ccat.sas.upenn.edu...

[edit on 7-3-2005 by Byrd]