Universal healthcare is indentured servitude and a weapon

originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: ScepticScot

The right to pursue healthcare is very real and should be protected.

The right to be provided healthcare by definition is not a universal right. Being provided healthcare is a functional of available doctors, available nurses, available emergency services, available resources, and available resources.

You can say owing a living breathing flesh and blood wing kittycorn is a universal right. Making something a universal right doesn’t make it accessible and automatically available.

Making healthcare “a universal right” doesn’t prevent rationing, or prevent resource availablity impacting access and patient health.

And what happens when you make something “free” for everyone, demand strains resources and raises costs. Making healthcare universal is ultimately self defeating and will cause limited access by consuming resources.

Universal healthcare is a con pushed by corrupt politicians promising items who’s access will always be limited by doctor availability and resource available. By definition healthcare will never be a universal right.

Universal healthcare is the norm across the developed world and has been for decades.

Access to healthcare can be a right of society decides It is and is willing to provide the resources to provide it.

Society doesn't decide what is a fundamental right.

Only it does.

Besides which, as I have already stated, I have no interest in what philosophical classification of right you want to claim It is or isn't.

If society decides people have the right to health care then they have that right.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: pexx421

You might give the context of you examples

Why Public Banking Works in North Dakota

www.nytimes.com...

Today, the bank receives many calls from people interested in starting a state-owned bank, and our response is consistent. We do not advocate the use of this model elsewhere. It is an issue for each individual state or municipality, and each must determine what is best for its needs.

The insight that we provide is this: the Bank of North Dakota is successful because we are partners with North Dakota’s financial institutions, not competitors. This was so important that one of the bank's founding principles was “to be helpful to and to assist in the development of state and national banks and other financial institutions and public corporations within the state and not, in any manner, to destroy or to be harmful to existing financial institutions.” This directive continues to guide every decision made at the bank today.

I fail to see your point. You asked for an example of a govt run entity that was efficient and didn’t ration. I gave you several. As to utilities. Sure. I recall when my sewage and water was privatized off. The bill just about doubled, in less than a year, and the service dropped significantly.

Sorry, neutron, I recognize the situation here. You have an addiction to an idea, and refuse to accept you may be wrong, even when presented with a plethora of evidence to the contrary. That’s fine, most ideologues do, it’s the same with partisan dems or repubs. Trumpeters especially cling to lies trump peddles even when photographic evidence is submitted.

The facts of the matter are this.

Every other western industrialized nation has nationalized or single payer healthcare

They are not dying in droves, in fact most of their outcomes surpass ours statistically, by a significant margin

The majority of polled Americans want such a system

Every single example of nationalized/single payer healthcare is far cheaper than ours.

Not a single practitioner in any of these single payer system complains that they are indentured servants. And they all get paid.

Really no more need be said on this matter

originally posted by: pexx421
Sorry, neutron, I recognize the situation here. You have an addiction to an idea, and refuse to accept you may be wrong, even when presented with a plethora of evidence to the contrary. That’s fine, most ideologues do, it’s the same with partisan dems or repubs. Trumpeters especially cling to lies trump peddles even when photographic evidence is submitted.

The facts of the matter are this.

Every other western industrialized nation has nationalized or single payer healthcare

They are not dying in droves, in fact most of their outcomes surpass ours statistically, by a significant margin

The majority of polled Americans want such a system

Every single example of nationalized/single payer healthcare is far cheaper than ours.

Not a single practitioner in any of these single payer system complains that they are indentured servants. And they all get paid.

Really no more need be said on this matter

www.theglobeandmail.com...
"If you read the newspaper headlines, you will think they are paid, on average, about $307,000. If you ask doctors – and family docs in particular – they will tell you their take-home pay is less than that of many plumbers and auto workers."

www.huffingtonpost.ca...

I don't know a single US doctor that would be willing to provide services based on the government mandated pay scale in the huffpost link above.

Medical wait times longer than ever
globalnews.ca...
"National wait times were the longest for neurosurgery at 46.9 weeks and shortest for access to a medical oncologist and at only 3.7 weeks.

Right now, Canadians are waiting for nearly one million medically necessary procedures, the institute warned. Doctors polled for the report conceded that they thought their patients were waiting more than three weeks longer for treatment after seeing a specialist than what they consider to be “clinically reasonable.”"

www.topmastersinhealthcare.com...
16 of the top 30 most advanced hospitals in the world are located in the USA
globalnews.ca...

originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: pexx421

You might give the context of you examples

Why Public Banking Works in North Dakota

www.nytimes.com...

Today, the bank receives many calls from people interested in starting a state-owned bank, and our response is consistent. We do not advocate the use of this model elsewhere. It is an issue for each individual state or municipality, and each must determine what is best for its needs.

The insight that we provide is this: the Bank of North Dakota is successful because we are partners with North Dakota’s financial institutions, not competitors. This was so important that one of the bank's founding principles was “to be helpful to and to assist in the development of state and national banks and other financial institutions and public corporations within the state and not, in any manner, to destroy or to be harmful to existing financial institutions.” This directive continues to guide every decision made at the bank today.

I fail to see your point. You asked for an example of a govt run entity that was efficient and didn’t ration. I gave you several. As to utilities. Sure. I recall when my sewage and water was privatized off. The bill just about doubled, in less than a year, and the service dropped significantly.

So your toilets didn't flush and the sinks didn't supply water on demand? How did your sewage and water service "drop off significantly"?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: ScepticScot

The right to pursue healthcare is very real and should be protected.

The right to be provided healthcare by definition is not a universal right. Being provided healthcare is a functional of available doctors, available nurses, available emergency services, available resources, and available resources.

You can say owing a living breathing flesh and blood wing kittycorn is a universal right. Making something a universal right doesn’t make it accessible and automatically available.

Making healthcare “a universal right” doesn’t prevent rationing, or prevent resource availablity impacting access and patient health.

And what happens when you make something “free” for everyone, demand strains resources and raises costs. Making healthcare universal is ultimately self defeating and will cause limited access by consuming resources.

Universal healthcare is a con pushed by corrupt politicians promising items who’s access will always be limited by doctor availability and resource available. By definition healthcare will never be a universal right.

Universal healthcare is the norm across the developed world and has been for decades.

Access to healthcare can be a right of society decides It is and is willing to provide the resources to provide it.

Society doesn't decide what is a fundamental right.

Only it does.

Besides which, as I have already stated, I have no interest in what philosophical classification of right you want to claim It is or isn't.

If society decides people have the right to health care then they have that right.

Societies make rules and laws, they don't make "rights". Rights are fundamental and universal, even if they are not recognized in some of the #hole countries.

originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: pexx421
Sorry, neutron, I recognize the situation here. You have an addiction to an idea, and refuse to accept you may be wrong, even when presented with a plethora of evidence to the contrary. That’s fine, most ideologues do, it’s the same with partisan dems or repubs. Trumpeters especially cling to lies trump peddles even when photographic evidence is submitted.

The facts of the matter are this.

Every other western industrialized nation has nationalized or single payer healthcare

They are not dying in droves, in fact most of their outcomes surpass ours statistically, by a significant margin

The majority of polled Americans want such a system

Every single example of nationalized/single payer healthcare is far cheaper than ours.

Not a single practitioner in any of these single payer system complains that they are indentured servants. And they all get paid.

Really no more need be said on this matter

www.theglobeandmail.com...
"If you read the newspaper headlines, you will think they are paid, on average, about $307,000. If you ask doctors – and family docs in particular – they will tell you their take-home pay is less than that of many plumbers and auto workers."

www.huffingtonpost.ca...

I don't know a single US doctor that would be willing to provide services based on the government mandated pay scale in the huffpost link above.

Medical wait times longer than ever
globalnews.ca...
"National wait times were the longest for neurosurgery at 46.9 weeks and shortest for access to a medical oncologist and at only 3.7 weeks.

Right now, Canadians are waiting for nearly one million medically necessary procedures, the institute warned. Doctors polled for the report conceded that they thought their patients were waiting more than three weeks longer for treatment after seeing a specialist than what they consider to be “clinically reasonable.”"

www.topmastersinhealthcare.com...
16 of the top 30 most advanced hospitals in the world are located in the USA
globalnews.ca...

And even with all that we fall significantly behind most of our peers in all statistics on outcomes. At over twice the cost. Interesting that 14 of the worlds most technologically advanced hospitals are in nations with single payer healthcare! Keeping in mind that the us has as much population as a large amount of those other nations combined.

Doesn’t impact or change what I stated.

originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: ScepticScot

The right to pursue healthcare is very real and should be protected.

The right to be provided healthcare by definition is not a universal right. Being provided healthcare is a functional of available doctors, available nurses, available emergency services, available resources, and available resources.

You can say owing a living breathing flesh and blood wing kittycorn is a universal right. Making something a universal right doesn’t make it accessible and automatically available.

Making healthcare “a universal right” doesn’t prevent rationing, or prevent resource availablity impacting access and patient health.

And what happens when you make something “free” for everyone, demand strains resources and raises costs. Making healthcare universal is ultimately self defeating and will cause limited access by consuming resources.

Universal healthcare is a con pushed by corrupt politicians promising items who’s access will always be limited by doctor availability and resource available. By definition healthcare will never be a universal right.

Universal healthcare is the norm across the developed world and has been for decades.

Access to healthcare can be a right of society decides It is and is willing to provide the resources to provide it.

Society doesn't decide what is a fundamental right.

Only it does.

Besides which, as I have already stated, I have no interest in what philosophical classification of right you want to claim It is or isn't.

If society decides people have the right to health care then they have that right.

Societies make rules and laws, they don't make "rights". Rights are fundamental and universal, even if they are not recognized in some of the #hole countries.

Without rules and laws rights are meaningless.

Even across developed nations with strong human rights the exact rights vary, they are certainly not universal.

a reply to: panoz77

Yes, there were issues with the sewerage that they took forever to fix, and initially tried to pawn off on us, refusing to do the repairs. Secondly their storage pond (the company was called modad) was located adjacent to the house. They consistently refused to come out and repair their fence, leaving us looking at a sewage pond, and they didn’t care for it appropriately causing it to smell horrible in a way it never did before. You can google it and see the complaints, news reports etc.

a reply to: neutronflux

Some of us have had to survive on very limited access. Heck some of us had to listen to out local politicians justify raising just about every local and state tax and few by pointing at the increasing costs of Medicaid after the federal govt shorted the states on the portion of the tab they were responsible for.
To me it seems that it might be a little saner to have to make some wait a little for things like hip replacement surgery if the wait poses no risk to the patient than it does to leave people practically out in the cold assuring them that oh the hospital has to provide them emergency care of they need it regardless of what the health problem is while demanding more and more money from them so that you can assure that their neighbor can ease her mind every time her kid has a runny nose.
Years back I broke my ankle. There was something wrong with it before the break and I did try to get it treated. It kept getting worse the doctor kept refusing to give me a note that would make limits to what I could do at work. My boss who was really not that great when it came to scheduling jobs or knowing just when he was biting off more than he could chew refused often to give any sick days or the like and even with insurance I was spending close to my entire paycheck for medical Bill's. The pain I was feeling was driving me nuts and I was sometimes stumbling around and falling at work. But to work I went had to needed the insurance needed the paycheck. I kept going till one morning my husband told me he didn't think we had enough money for has for me to get to work. I quit the job hoping that maybe of I just laid off the ankle and have it a rest it would get better on its own. And months later I stood up to walk took a couple steps hear a couple loud cracks and fell back down.
I was finally able to get that emergency care Which is far from free by the way. It consisted of an xray a yep you broke it a splint that was slapped on and well after I finally asked for it something for the pain. I was given the name and phone number of a surgeon to call to make an appointment with. He wanted thousands of dollars as a down payment. Like we had thousands of dollars just laying around. I spent over a week trying to find a different surgeon that wouldn't expect us to have a money tree growing in our back yard. I tried talking to social service again to no avail. I finally just told me husband that I have up. I didn't need to walk again that badly. He talked to his boss who then called our state representative who eventually called me to hear me story. Who I got a feeling then called the surgeon who promptly called me to make the appointment. And that is how I finally managed to get the surgery to set my ankle.
Recently a friend needed an operation in her hand something similar to corpal tunnel. She was on Facebook blaming Obama care for the insane down payment that the surgeon was demanding which was far less that what had been demanded of us. I couldn't resist I replied to get post and reminded her of what I had home through before Obama was in office. I wanted to be a smart-- and welcome her to the ever growing too rich to be poor but too poor to be able to live but well She had been my best friend at one
time.
Its pretty disgusting though that the way we ration healthcare prioritizes a kids runny nose over a broken ankle and a persons ability to walk and live independently.

Want to talk about backups and waste? How about all the people without insurance, who use the er as their primary care? It’s the main reason for the huge er wait times, and a massive dump of taxpayer dollars. If we had universal healthcare those people could go to actual clinics and doctors appointments and the er and hospitals would be much more efficient. And taxpayers would save a ton paying for doctors visits rather than er visits.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: panoz77

Yes, there were issues with the sewerage that they took forever to fix, and initially tried to pawn off on us, refusing to do the repairs. Secondly their storage pond (the company was called modad) was located adjacent to the house. They consistently refused to come out and repair their fence, leaving us looking at a sewage pond, and they didn’t care for it appropriately causing it to smell horrible in a way it never did before. You can google it and see the complaints, news reports etc.

You live next door to a sewage pond? You have my sympathies.

originally posted by: pexx421
Want to talk about backups and waste? How about all the people without insurance, who use the er as their primary care? It’s the main reason for the huge er wait times, and a massive dump of taxpayer dollars. If we had universal healthcare those people could go to actual clinics and doctors appointments and the er and hospitals would be much more efficient. And taxpayers would save a ton paying for doctors visits rather than er visits.

There are cash pay clinics everywhere. Drug stores have them, even many Walmarts have pay service for simple illnesses, or immediate care clinics, occupational health clinics etc. None of which are "expensive" for simple broken bones, blood tests, getting antibiotics for an infection etc. The problem is the low income folks already know they can get treated "FREEE" at the emergency room, so why the hell would they pay someone? They even get a free ambulance ride to town, no need for a cab.

www.walmart.com...
www.walgreens.com...

a reply to: panoz77

And is it correct to say the laws are written where the ER cannot turn any person away? As long as they are not a physical threat to anyone.

The poor have had access to healthcare for a long time.

originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: pexx421
Want to talk about backups and waste? How about all the people without insurance, who use the er as their primary care? It’s the main reason for the huge er wait times, and a massive dump of taxpayer dollars. If we had universal healthcare those people could go to actual clinics and doctors appointments and the er and hospitals would be much more efficient. And taxpayers would save a ton paying for doctors visits rather than er visits.

There are cash pay clinics everywhere. Drug stores have them, even many Walmarts have pay service for simple illnesses, or immediate care clinics, occupational health clinics etc. None of which are "expensive" for simple broken bones, blood tests, getting antibiotics for an infection etc. The problem is the low income folks already know they can get treated "FREEE" at the emergency room, so why the hell would they pay someone? They even get a free ambulance ride to town, no need for a cab.

www.walmart.com...
www.walgreens.com...

Interesting, so merica already has universal free healthcare in ERs.

You goddam evil socialist communist bastards lol. /sarc

a reply to: neutronflux

Sure if they don't mind being in so much debt they'll be stuck living in poverty forever.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Aazadan

Please give past examples of other government programs that actually reduced costs and / or didn’t result in rationing?

How about police and fire fighters? Privatizing both have been disasterous. Privatization only works when not buying a service is a viable alternative. Unless you have a death wish, there is no alternative to medicine.

a reply to: panoz77

No they weren’t. Doctors quite liked Romneycare which is the same thing as the ACA. Just because people get wrapped up in political rhetoric and act on emotion rather than logic doesn’t mean it was bad for doctors.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: panoz77

And is it correct to say the laws are written where the ER cannot turn any person away? As long as they are not a physical threat to anyone.

The poor have had access to healthcare for a long time.

An ER won’t turn you away but they don’t treat you for free either. If you’re poor a single ER visit can force you into bankruptcy. A minor issue like getting treated for pneumonia will cost on average 40% of your annual income if you’re at minimum wage.

originally posted by: panoz77
There are cash pay clinics everywhere.

My manager just tried one of these. It cost him 2000 to have a simple rash unsuccessfully treated when he was then referred to an ER which charged him another 4700. All for an $11 prescription.

That was after his insurance covered 45% of the cost.