Universal healthcare is indentured servitude and a weapon

Back to single payer controlling costs in America. I don’t see it.

The universities in the USA are liberal strongholds, heavily subsidized, and government controls the student loans. Yet, year after year tuition increases outpaces inflation.

Government single payer in the USA will only change who is raping the system, and will miserably fail to control costs. Welcome to crony capitalism.

originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: panoz77

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: panoz77

Would you rather go see the doctor that's actually in it because they want to help people or the one that's trying to maximize their profit?

I don't care about "feels". I want the best and brightest operating on me regardless of their motivation.

Ah. Because doctors in every other western industrialized nation with national healthcare are worse than the doctors we have here in the us. Interesting. Sorry, but our medical education system is not set up to garner the best and brightest. It’s set up to extract as much money as possible from aspiring doctors.

Yes, America is by far the home of MAGA doctors. That is why the rest of the world who want the best lifesaving care come here.

Strange how there are plenty people, including Americans, who go to other nations for care as well. Also, sorry but the idea that we in America can all go to the best doctors is bs. The vast majority of us often just go to whichever schmuck is covered by our crappy plan and closest to our home. And I’ve had plenty doctors whose care I was unsatisfied with, which resulted in me not getting appropriate treatment I needed because they are not familiar with my condition and don’t want to draw the appropriate labs unless I pay for them out of pocket, and don’t want to send me to a specialist because then they don’t get their kickback from my insurance company. Oh! Let’s also not forget how we are only allowed to complain about one issue at each appt, so if I have several things I want to address I need to make several appointments with the same doctor, and pay several copays and cover several sets of noncovered costs or labs.

Really wish You would grab a dictionary and look up the meaning of the new big words you run across. It seems to me that our current economic and healthcare system would foster something much more similar to indentured servitude. But then I have at least an elementary understanding of what the term means.

I mean wouldn't being tied be your employer because he is the source of the insurance that you require to keep the medications you need to stay alive not only meet that term but go beyond into the domain of slavery?

And why don't you'd tell those diabetics who are rationing out their insulin because the cost of it has doubled over a short time and they can no longer afford it that healthcare isn't a right. Many of whom are working or possibly have been working recently on the past. Who are paying taxes of which partly has been going to pay for the much needed insulin of the "less fortunate". Going to drug companies to support their quest for newer drugs to be the sole reapers of the profits from those drugs. Going to research and development for new cures and equipment. Going into training for healthcare providers as well as the hospitals the work in. Going to insurance companies to subsidize the health insurance of probably half of of the children in the country. The taxpayer's have probably put in just as much if not more funds into building this grand best in the world healthcare system than the parasitic corporation that are reaping insane profits due to their overinflated pricing never would have been sustainable in a truly free market!!

a reply to: theatreboy

Parts from the black market?

ac360.blogs.cnn.com...

Four years ago, a young, cash-starved Israeli answered an ad in a newspaper for a kidney donor.

"I decided I wanted to make a positive change in my life and do something different," Nick Rosen told CNN. "So I saw an ad in the paper and it said, 'Kidney Donor Wanted.' And called the ad in the paper, and they asked me my blood type."

Ultimately, Rosen flew to New York and underwent surgery at Mount Sinai Medical Center to remove one of his two healthy kidneys.

"Let's say I donated a kidney and received compensation," he said.

Rosen's story is one of several that have come to light in recent weeks as part of a worldwide CNN investigation into what appears to be a widespread black market in human organs currently under scrutiny by authorities in the United States and Israel.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Fools
Weird, how did my grand daughter ever get born? Her mother had no insurance and a lousy job and somehow she hasn't been charged one cent. In your scenario that is just outright impossible - and yet it happened!

You do realize that in some areas of the US (predominantly red states, outside of the cities), deaths in childbirth, for both mothers and babies are approaching that of third world nation levels? In that metric, the US is now far lower than any other developed country in the world, and just barely higher than that of most undeveloped nations.

I actually do realize that and the reasons have little to do with hospitals not attempting to take care of patients but patient stupidity. You have pending mothers in this country that are honestly so dumb that they do not see a doctor or nurse one single time before they go into labor. And that is - for a fact - the actual cause of that issue. It isn't the medical system, it is culture of stupidity.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Fools
Weird, how did my grand daughter ever get born? Her mother had no insurance and a lousy job and somehow she hasn't been charged one cent. In your scenario that is just outright impossible - and yet it happened!

You do realize that in some areas of the US (predominantly red states, outside of the cities), deaths in childbirth, for both mothers and babies are approaching that of third world nation levels? In that metric, the US is now far lower than any other developed country in the world, and just barely higher than that of most undeveloped nations.

And another thing, wasn't Obamacare supposed to make everything better? How did things get worse under Obamacare? I mean that should be impossible since it was mainly created to take care of those that are uninsured. I would imagine that would be the crew you are describing in this statistic. You better start going door to door and checking on these gals because I am pretty damn sure they are all potential Democratic voters.

originally posted by: dawnstar
Really wish You would grab a dictionary and look up the meaning of the new big words you run across. It seems to me that our current economic and healthcare system would foster something much more similar to indentured servitude. But then I have at least an elementary understanding of what the term means.

I mean wouldn't being tied be your employer because he is the source of the insurance that you require to keep the medications you need to stay alive not only meet that term but go beyond into the domain of slavery?

And why don't you'd tell those diabetics who are rationing out their insulin because the cost of it has doubled over a short time and they can no longer afford it that healthcare isn't a right. Many of whom are working or possibly have been working recently on the past. Who are paying taxes of which partly has been going to pay for the much needed insulin of the "less fortunate". Going to drug companies to support their quest for newer drugs to be the sole reapers of the profits from those drugs. Going to research and development for new cures and equipment. Going into training for healthcare providers as well as the hospitals the work in. Going to insurance companies to subsidize the health insurance of probably half of of the children in the country. The taxpayer's have probably put in just as much if not more funds into building this grand best in the world healthcare system than the parasitic corporation that are reaping insane profits due to their overinflated pricing never would have been sustainable in a truly free market!!

One. There is no universal right to a job. People should have equal opportunity to fail or succeed. When I do work, it’s for a wage and benefits. My wage or income made by my employer pays for services and goods.

Two, quote where I said the USA system isn’t messed up.

Three my messages was simple. Healthcare is provided by skilled individuals, and access to those individuals is not an universal right. To say healthcare is an universal right is saying society is an indentured servant where individuals have no control how and when their skills are accessed.

Saying healthcare is a right literally means it should be accessible with no compensation for those providing healthcare. Saying healthcare is a right means it should be provided on demand with no compensation.

Does that mean doctors should get free education with no compensation for universities. Does that mean medical suppliers should supply medical supplies with no compensation.

originally posted by: Fools
I actually do realize that and the reasons have little to do with hospitals not attempting to take care of patients but patient stupidity. You have pending mothers in this country that are honestly so dumb that they do not see a doctor or nurse one single time before they go into labor. And that is - for a fact - the actual cause of that issue. It isn't the medical system, it is culture of stupidity.

And how many of them can afford it? Doctors visits cost hundreds or thousands of dollars PER VISIT when you don't have insurance, and if you can't afford insurance, how can you be expected to afford that?

originally posted by: Fools
And another thing, wasn't Obamacare supposed to make everything better? How did things get worse under Obamacare? I mean that should be impossible since it was mainly created to take care of those that are uninsured. I would imagine that would be the crew you are describing in this statistic. You better start going door to door and checking on these gals because I am pretty damn sure they are all potential Democratic voters.

Things did get better with the ACA, they would have gotten even better had Republicans not attempted to sabotage the system on multiple occasions.

The ACA also delivered on precisely what the people asked for (and asking government for anything is always a monkeys paw situation). People said they wanted health insurance and that's precisely what they got. What they should have asked for was access to health care.

The biggest revelation from the implementation of the ACA was that even though 47 million out of 298 million were officially uninsured in 2006 (15.7%), out of the 250 million or so who were insured, only about 80 million of those were actually properly insured. The remaining 170 million people had plans that were inadequate and only met the definition of insurance because there wasn't really any sort of rules on what could be called insurance as long as it had some sort of payout system. Most of those plans would have been better described as supplemental insurance, or prescription drug plans.

The ACA actually laid out the definitions of insurance and required it to be much more inclusive. This is where the biggest pushback came from, because when Obama said that if people liked their doctors/plans they could keep them, it was before anyone knew the actual scale of just how many people in the US were severely underinsured at the time. As such, costs increased in order to fix that so that people were paying for a product that had a real return, instead of paying for something that offered little to no benefit.

Additionally, the increase in the cost of health care went up at a rate lower than every single study predicted it would go up without the ACA. So, it was successful at both insuring people and lowering costs.

originally posted by: neutronflux
Saying healthcare is a right literally means it should be accessible with no compensation for those providing healthcare. Saying healthcare is a right means it should be provided on demand with no compensation.

Due process is a right. Last I checked, lawyers, judges, bailiffs, prison guards, police, and all the rest still get compensated in order to provide that.

a reply to: neutronflux

Call it a right or call it whatever you want. How about let’s call it some of our taxes that serve us rather than military, subsidized business, etc. Due process and legal representation is a right, provided by skilled (hopefully) workers. It works fine. Many things are provided with no direct exchange, but as they are publicly funded the workers still get paid. They often work just fine.

I find your argument largely ludicrous. We, and you, know what is proposed. It’s our tax dollars supporting a system we all need, that private providers have shown themselves unable to manage and provide responsibly. Call it what you want, we are all pretty familiar with the models being proposed, and that it will come from taxes. Do I expect that publicly funded hospitals will be so jacked up that saltwater will cost $200? That insulin will cost people $500 a month? That a plentiful and cheap to produce cure for hep c will cost $96k? Not even close.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: xuenchen
There goes the tax cuts 😖

Liberal azzholes who run Illinois now, just blocked the Trump Administration's new "Association Group Health Plans" rule.

It's ObamaCare, or Insurance @ work in Illinois. I hope Americans are smart again in 2020, and keep liberals out of high federal office.

Hogwash. In Illinois, you can choose to buy any health insurance plan offered. Always have been able to. Now that's no different than Obamacare, since Obamacare is just private health insurance, but other health insurance out side of the Obamacare marketplace are certainly available.

a reply to: pexx421

I find your argument largely ludicrous. We, and you, know what is proposed.

How.

Please explain how any service that demands other people’s time, skills, and resources is a right to you with you providing no compensation in return?

So by definition, healthcare cannot be a right. Unless you expect people to provide services with no compensation?

a reply to: pexx421

What you want are things to be fair? Then shouldn’t that be the right? Universal fairness?


What the government wants is sameness, which is different than fairness.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: pexx421

I find your argument largely ludicrous. We, and you, know what is proposed.

How.

Please explain how any service that demands other people’s time, skills, and resources is a right to you with you providing no compensation in return?

So by definition, healthcare cannot be a right. Unless you expect people to provide services with no compensation?

The US sixth amendment specifies the right to a lawyer.

Do lawyers work for free in the US?

a reply to: ScepticScot

They can when they choose too. And the government will provide you a lawy at the cost of the tax payer as defined by federal and state law. The law mostly is in the context the government cannot ramrod you into prison with no representation and without due process.

So please define right to vs universal right vs a right. Healthcare vs due process.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: ScepticScot

They can when they choose too. And the government will provide you a lawy at the cost of the tax payer as defined by federal and state law. The law most is in the context the government cannot ramrod you into prison with no representation and without due process.

So please define right to vs universal right vs a right. Healthcare vs due process.

So the government can provide something when required that is a right.

Healthcare logically then can be a right even through it requires people to be paid.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: ScepticScot

They can when they choose too. And the government will provide you a lawy at the cost of the tax payer as defined by federal and state law. The law most is in the context the government cannot ramrod you into prison with no representation and without due process.

So please define right to vs universal right vs a right. Healthcare vs due process.

So the government can provide something when required that is a right.

Healthcare logically then can be a right even through it requires people to be paid.

When it’s set up as law. Can you state what law defines healthcare as a right?

a reply to: ScepticScot

Now you answer the below.

So please define right to vs universal right vs a right. Healthcare vs due process.

a reply to: ScepticScot

And I think the actual term is a lawyer will be provided to you. Please quote the actual law defining access to a lawyer.