Peoples vote lies on numbers - London Protest - MSM wont report

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
a reply to: alldaylong

ohhh yeah so it is, meh am human sure you've made a error after a quick google search.

No mistake on my part.

The ongoing TTIP negotiations must see ‘significant movement from the US’ this week, or no agreement will be secured until 2019, the EU Commissioner for Agriculture has said

www.agriland.ie...

To date talks haven't even reopened on the trade deal.

a reply to: alldaylong

yup I have conceded the point.

Dude have you see how much crap I take on ATS for my views, like honestly, I take a lot of # in this place, the op of this thread has even singled me out for some strange reason. Sometimes I dont have time to fact check each and every post I write, I do try but believe it or not I do have a life off ATS and in-between making dinner am writing quick fire posts.

We all make mistakes I am happy to hold my hands up to them when they are pointed out. It does not bother me as much as you might think.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: teapot

The EU are trying to abolish the nation state.

If Scotland were ever to remain in the EU separate to rUK then they would become nothing more than a remote hinterland of the EU superstate with little representation - not that representation will mean anything.

I can't see many EU Commissars fighting for Scotland's rights and interests.

Spain would veto it and I think that would kill it. Not quite sure why that doesn't get acknowledged more.

Because its not true.

Honestly its a myth.

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Spain would have no objection to Scotland rejoining the European Union as an independent nation, as long as the secession process from the United Kingdom was legally binding, Spanish foreign minister Josep Borrell said on Tuesday.

Link

I was pretty surprised by that announcement myself but yeah, Spain are up for it so long as the succession process is all good. Ironically that only leaves the UK who might veto....but it looks like rUK won't have a say.

That's interesting, but I'm not so sure. They know that Catalonia would see it as more fuel to their fire.

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: teapot

The EU are trying to abolish the nation state.

If Scotland were ever to remain in the EU separate to rUK then they would become nothing more than a remote hinterland of the EU superstate with little representation - not that representation will mean anything.

I can't see many EU Commissars fighting for Scotland's rights and interests.

Spain would veto it and I think that would kill it. Not quite sure why that doesn't get acknowledged more.

Because its not true.

Honestly its a myth.

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Spain would have no objection to Scotland rejoining the European Union as an independent nation, as long as the secession process from the United Kingdom was legally binding, Spanish foreign minister Josep Borrell said on Tuesday.

Link

I was pretty surprised by that announcement myself but yeah, Spain are up for it so long as the succession process is all good. Ironically that only leaves the UK who might veto....but it looks like rUK won't have a say.

That's interesting, but I'm not so sure. They know that Catalonia would see it as more fuel to their fire.

Yeah I was pretty surprised when read that also but it is coming from the Spanish Foreign minister so I think its fairly legit.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Yes we all make mistakes and i accept you did on this particular topic.

Problem is, people read stuff and take it as gospel.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: uncommitted
It's only really Prime Ministers question time when they all act like clowns...

But I love that. Full blown English humor is in effect during that time.

lol, there are some points of our humour, sadly too few but sometimes it can be funny....

www.youtube.com...

Ok, that's not from PM question time, but it's still funny.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: uncommitted

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: teapot

The EU are trying to abolish the nation state.

If Scotland were ever to remain in the EU separate to rUK then they would become nothing more than a remote hinterland of the EU superstate with little representation - not that representation will mean anything.

I can't see many EU Commissars fighting for Scotland's rights and interests.

Spain would veto it and I think that would kill it. Not quite sure why that doesn't get acknowledged more.

Because its not true.

Honestly its a myth.

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Spain would have no objection to Scotland rejoining the European Union as an independent nation, as long as the secession process from the United Kingdom was legally binding, Spanish foreign minister Josep Borrell said on Tuesday.

Link

I was pretty surprised by that announcement myself but yeah, Spain are up for it so long as the succession process is all good. Ironically that only leaves the UK who might veto....but it looks like rUK won't have a say.

That's interesting, but I'm not so sure. They know that Catalonia would see it as more fuel to their fire.

Yeah I was pretty surprised when read that also but it is coming from the Spanish Foreign minister so I think its fairly legit.

No doubt it's legit as far as their Foreign minister is concerned if that's what the person said, but it's ok saying things when they are dealing with hypotheticals.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Their votes would not be irrelevant because all 17.4 Million of them can head out and vote to leave again if they wish to do so,

But the very fact that a second referendum has been deemed null and void for no valid or legal reason immediately makes them irrelevant.
And it effectively says Remain votes are more valid and carry more weight than Leave votes.

... those who may have changed their minds (on all sides) will also have a chance to change their vote accordingly.

But that's not how referendums work; straight forward In/Out ballot....I've heard no strong argument that justifies annulling the result of the referendum.

... If however say, 20 Million vote to remain then we remain.

You might.
The actions of Remainers after the last referendum suggest otherwise.

And still absolutely no explanation of how you would go about placating the very large minority that would feel completely cheated and disenfranchised.

Would entirely depend on the result so I cannot honestly answer that question, if it was another 17.4 million then I wouldn't expect them to be all that happy about it. I would expect a rise in eurosceptic politics in the UK again, I even think it could be possible there could be isolated violence but nothing on a large scale.

So the divisions in this country would only be deepened in the event of a second referendum going in favour of Remaining.

Great plan....ignore the result of a democratically held referendum, hold a second referendum and hope the result of the first is overturned in the knowledge that it will create national division on a scale not seen since, well I don't really know...The Civil War perhaps?

To be brutally honest no.

Quelle surprise.

And that about sums it up....wait until the result goes your way then # everybody who doesn't agree!

.... I mean you don't seem to hold must respect for those of us who want a second vote,....

I respect many of the people, and everyone's right to their own opinion....I just think its a crap, unjust and undemocratic opinion.

....besides I also believe that any second referendum should be legally binding.

Of course you do....in the hope that the result of the second trumps the result of the first and then being able to ignore the self same arguments you've made to get your second referendum to be used as justification for a third.

I believe it should be a choice between no-brexit and a no-deal Brexit.

I categorically oppose all calss for a second referendum until the first has been enacted upon.....that's called democracy at work!

Those are my most honest answers.

And as usual I respect them and you, at least you've attempted to answer in a straight forward manner and respectfully.

a reply to: Freeborn

But that's not how referendums work; straight forward In/Out ballot....I've heard no strong argument that justifies annulling the result of the referendum.

I think this is where the conflict really arises with this issue.

The two fractions in this debate look at this from very different perspectives now I don't think its fair to say one is more correct than the other, this is very much a case of opinion and politics over anything else.

So from your perspective you believe that a second referendum would be annulling the result of the first and that this is undemocratic. Which is a entirely understandable position to have and I am not saying you are wrong rathe that I have a different perspective on it.

From my perspective a second referendum isn't so much about annulling the first but rather confirming it now that parliament is unable to forge a way forward and there seems to be a very real feeling in the country that if a second vote was to be had that the result would probably swing the other way. We need to do what is in the best interests of the future generations of this country and the debate is about if we are better in the EU or out of the EU. There are very good arguments to be made on both sides and I think ultimately it comes down to how one balances those arguments for oneself. I happen to be of the opinion that Brexit will be catastrophic for this country, I have set out my reasons for this many times and honestly cannot be arsed going into it again only for someone to claim its all part of project-fear.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

You are correct in my reasoning as to why I view a second referendum as undemocratic and that it would actually undermine the basic core principles surrounding the democratic process.

But if, and its a massive IF, there is to be a second referendum then for me the only options can be;

1. Parliament backed Deal.
2. No Deal.

I can see why people would advocate another In/Out vote.....but again, we've had that.

I have set out my reasons for this many times and honestly cannot be arsed going into it again

Ditto brother.
Its all become incredibly tedious....I fear that many now are completely disengaged with the whole thing.
By design?

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Yeah I was pretty surprised when read that also but it is coming from the Spanish Foreign minister so I think its fairly legit.

Oh!!!!! that must be a first......

A politician who doesn't lie

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin


Things have changed, parliament is at grid-lock on this, now parliament and government have failed the people on that I think we can all agree, they have failed us right since the start of this entire farce back in 2016.
They might have said that they will abide by the referendum result however there is an undeniable outcry in this country right now over whats happening.

They gave the people the vote?

The people voted LEAVE.

The outcry is coming from the very people who are 'supposed' to be carrying

out the will of the people.

The people in power who find it against the grain to do what the people they

are 'supposed' to represent voted for

However there is an clear demand from the people of the UK for a say on what happens next with Brexit, you might want to deny it but the fact is right now 5.5 Million people have gone as far to say revoke article 50, hundreds of thousands have went on a march demanding a peoples vote

The referendum gave a clear result.

Where are the 5.5 million people from? ....... They are definately not from

those voted to leave, and if they are from the people who have already

voted to remain, it doesnt change the result of the referendum?? Its just 5.5

million from the original 48% of remainers. Nothings changed.

currently polling data suggest that the people of the UK also want to remain in the EU.

Polls are notoriously inaccurate.

# The Scottish referendum was supposed to have a leave result?

# The Eu referendum was supposed to have a remain result?

The will of the people seems to have changed, parliament is completely inept so I believe that it should be on the people of the UK to fix this mess. We should have one final vote that

I'm not so sure the will of the people has changed. The only changes I

have come across has been from remainers who accepting that our

leaders may be inept,but have changed their minds due to the actions or

inactions of the EU leaders

I totally get that you might disagree with that but a lot of Brexit supporters are actually advocating denying the people of the UK to express their will. A lot has changed since 2016.

Brexit supporters are confident that another vote would not change the

result, but are more concerned that our system built on democracy is

being trashed in the manor of the dictorial EU demanding revotes till they

achieve the result wanted. It has been tried and tested by the EU with

success many times before.

i'm with Bruce Dickinson.

Brexit already!

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Looking forward to Other Side of the Coin jumping in to defend this...

Why do you think I specifically care if it was 300,000 or 600,000 or even a million, I don't know how some members get so triggered by my little alien in a suit but I am not going to deny the numbers. The numbers that I was hearing was about 600,000, I think 1 million is probably a little bit much and that only came from the organisers who were obviously going to exaggerate their numbers.

What I would say is that I haven't seen a march like that in the UK since the Iraq war of 2003.

So I would say its probably on the higher end of that estimate.

Also I don't think that anyone would expect 17.4 million people would ever be on a march. Even f we meet in the middle and say its half a million who turned up then it still dwarfs Farage and his march to leave with 200 odd folk bothering to turn up. Marches like this are good, you can claim its fake news when the press say the public opinion is changing, you can claim that the petition is being signed by bots, you can claim that opinion polls are bias but you cannot deny a massive crowd like that.

Honestly a dont know if I should be flattered or confused that you seem to have written a thread just for little old me.

You could all ways just shoot me a PM if you want my opinion on something so much.

I hope that has satisfied your need for my attention.

Peoples vote? Funny, we already had one. We voted to leave. That’s democracy. 300,000 or a million marching makes no difference. Just marching to Blair’s tune.

What's side are the old school English Patriots on.

Why do I feel like liberals down want the. Brexit?

originally posted by: Bloodworth
What's side are the old school English Patriots on.

Why do I feel like liberals down want the. Brexit?

It’s not entirely split like that, people are split even with in ideological groups. Some conservatives for example are all against it some socialists are for it.

It’s much more complex than a left vs right argument

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

It’s much more complex than a left vs right argument

Too complex for me. I have to admit I am having difficulty following all this. It is a complete shambles.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

It’s much more complex than a left vs right argument

Too complex for me. I have to admit I am having difficulty following all this. It is a complete shambles.

It feel like even parliamentarians are having trouble following it

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I was thinking that, too. I am definitely suffering from Brexit fatigue.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I was thinking that, too. I am definitely suffering from Brexit fatigue.

I think that’s part of the agenda... Wear us all down until we are sick of Brexit and no longer want it!

Is not going to work with me