Why on earth are people still getting pensions?

Pension is earned ! You can´t say same of many other who get so called "free income" .

Pension is earned it makes their life of retirees a bit easier when sickness comes and it will come. Alzheimer, Parkinson, Lewy´s disease, heart problems etc. Retirees have right to their pension they have paid.

Young people seldom see what retirees face in their old age.. and it isn´t pretty !

They will need every penny!

Good question. I also wonder why health care and jobs are intertwined.

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: Bluntone22

It won't be long before some of these funds collapse and everyone will be screaming bailout..

No bailout, if they didn't want to compromise let them all fail.

Good luck getting any politician to go along with multiple thousands of people losing their retirement funds.
They want reelected or at least not hung by the nearest tree..

originally posted by: dollukka
Pension is earned ! You can´t say same of many other who get so called "free income" .

Pension is earned it makes their life of retirees a bit easier when sickness comes and it will come. Alzheimer, Parkinson, Lewy´s disease, heart problems etc. Retirees have right to their pension they have paid.

Young people seldom see what retirees face in their old age.. and it isn´t pretty !

They will need every penny!

Yes and what about all the people without a pension that are being forced to pay for them?
They too grow old and have sickness, etc.. Those people have a right to their hard earned money also.

This isn't just about old and young, there are plenty of old people that don't have a pension but have to pay for others pensions through higher taxes. Some people in Illinois are literally being taxed out of their houses. So who is right?

a reply to: JAGStorm

Your title is " Why on earth are people still getting pensions?"

US do afford paying as it has afforded to pay extremely high amounts of money for defence programs over the decades, Star Wars programs by Reagan for example.. you have your priorities all messed up. US has money to pay pension to those who do not have pension at all, in Finland all retirees do get pension, it is in our law , some pay extra pension to insurance companies but its voluntary.

a reply to: peskyhumans

Pensions sound great until there is no money to pay out on them anymore.

You can have a right to it all you want, but because someone else has to provide that money to you, it isn't a right at all. It's simply a social privilege. And if the society you live in goes belly up because you feel entitled to it along with too many others, then there is no more so-called right because there just isn't any money, and that is what Illinois is facing along with many other places.

Instead of people taking a step back and realizing there was and is no way for their "right" to be provided to them sustainably which might mean they get less, they keep demanding society run itself into fiscal collapse which soon enough no one has anything instead of just having less.

a reply to: Edumakated

In addition, the pension benefits relative to the employee contributions are too lucrative.

What makes you say that?

I have been paying into my union pension for over 30 years... going to retire at 55 in about 17 months. I think I would have to live a very long time to get out what I put in... We did lose our cash out option a couple years ago...

a reply to: ketsuko

You can have a right to it all you want, but because someone else has to provide that money to you, it isn't a right at all. It's simply a social privilege.

But if we make a deal, and sign a contract that something like...We will pay you $35 an hour, 25 on the check and 10 into your pension fund for every hour you work....

I think I have the right to call that my money

originally posted by: tinner07
a reply to: ketsuko

You can have a right to it all you want, but because someone else has to provide that money to you, it isn't a right at all. It's simply a social privilege.

But if we make a deal, and sign a contract that something like...We will pay you $35 an hour, 25 on the check and 10 into your pension fund for every hour you work....

I think I have the right to call that my money

That is truly the hard part. That is the part where everyone has to say, yes you really did deserve that but if things keep going the way they are, not only will you not get that, it will pretty much be a downward slide for everyone.
If you don't believe it, look at what happened in Detroit. Illinois will be next.

It isn't fair, and it isn't right, but if nothing is done it will be much worse. The money can't just come out of thin air.
Most of the other states will not want to bail out states that have been irresponsible.

I do not put the fault on the worker at all. In the end they will receive a broken promise.
The same thing happened to my dad who served in the military. When he was drafted they promised the world, and when he re-enlisted. Many of those same promises were broken.

originally posted by: tinner07
a reply to: Edumakated

In addition, the pension benefits relative to the employee contributions are too lucrative.

What makes you say that?

I have been paying into my union pension for over 30 years... going to retire at 55 in about 17 months. I think I would have to live a very long time to get out what I put in... We did lose our cash out option a couple years ago...

Govt workers get payouts that far exceed any of the contributions they make to the pension.

This is from a study talking about IL pensions which is the poster child of pension bomb...

With every paycheck, a city employee contributes a fixed percentage of his or her salary to the pension system. Over a worker’s career, their total contributions are based on their average salary. But pension benefits aren’t based on those contributions. Instead, pension benefits are based on a worker’s end-of-career salary, when their salary is likely to be at its highest point.

Retirees with 30 or more years of service will receive, on average, total pension benefits nearing, and sometimes exceeding, $2 million over the course of their full retirement. In contrast, an individual in the private sector would need to have $1 million to $1.5 million in the bank at the point of retirement to purchase an annuity that mirrors what career city workers receive during retirement.

Chicago Pensions

a reply to: Bluntone22

Pensions are stupid and always have been. You should never be paying someone that doesnt work for you.

How is having a pension paying somebody that does not work for me? Honestly that sounds kinda stupid lol

a reply to: Edumakated

Ok... Our pension plan is way different. you work x number of hours in the year and you get a pension credit or more or less depending on hours worked. I do not know how they figure the payout, and many years are different rates. So lets say between 1988 and 1992 the monthly benefit is $250 a month, everybody in our plan with pension credits in those years get that amount each month... 92-95 may be 180 a month.... for every credit year... if that makes sense.... actually a lot less per month than we put in

a reply to: JAGStorm

Our pension plan, is not a public pension, but it did reach the critical stage a few years ago. We lost our cash out option, monthly benefit rates dropped a lot. But by losing our cash out, and work picking up dramatically over the last couple years they did retroactive the monthly payouts up for the past 10 years...

a reply to: tinner07

A lot of times, the people who manage the fund tell you what it has based on projections, not reality, and those projections are too generous.

They might say the fund is going to realize a 7% rate of return, but then it only gets a 3 or 4% return. The actual benefit you are told you got is still that 7%. That's where the shortfall comes from because that's the number used.

Then you also have people who outlive the money the fund has for them.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Ummmm... you know the majority of the pensioners were old contract hirees, right? The ones that actually had "retirement plans" through their employer. Such a rarity today...employers taking care of employees. Whether or not that employee was a civil servant.

All the boomers are retiring these days, or already retired. Expect to see old contract pensions continue to climb for a few years...then there will be a huge dive in pensions when the elders start to pass.

There's not too many companies out there that offer a real retirement these days though, so your wishes are coming true.

originally posted by: tinner07
a reply to: ketsuko

You can have a right to it all you want, but because someone else has to provide that money to you, it isn't a right at all. It's simply a social privilege.

But if we make a deal, and sign a contract that something like...We will pay you $35 an hour, 25 on the check and 10 into your pension fund for every hour you work....

I think I have the right to call that my money

Sure the $10 you put in is yours, but you end up drawing out far more than any tangible, real money you saved, and you will almost certainly end up drawing more than any rate of return your money realized too.

As I explained, pension funds are managed too optimistically and the shortfalls aren't made up very often. You likely have little actual idea of what is actually sitting in your pension fund that is actually yours directly from your money because it's being managed for you.

trump gets a pension from the union I'm a member of. I expect to get a pension when I retire from SAG and IATSE being as how I pay into the fund, just like trump did. It's the "art of the deal" I made when I signed the contracts.

www.hollywoodreporter.com...

Union Strong....

a reply to: ketsuko

Then you also have people who outlive the money the fund has for them.

I don't see that happening.... If I told you what I pay in monthly for my monthly benefit at retirement age you'd call me stupid lol...

We actually have options... I can take 100% of my monthly benefit and when I die, no more money is paid out... I can take a reduced rate and when I die my wife will still get the payments...
I can take a reduced rate and name a beneficiary, who can name a beneficiary and it guarantees 20 years of payments...

originally posted by: tinner07
a reply to: Edumakated

Ok... Our pension plan is way different. you work x number of hours in the year and you get a pension credit or more or less depending on hours worked. I do not know how they figure the payout, and many years are different rates. So lets say between 1988 and 1992 the monthly benefit is $250 a month, everybody in our plan with pension credits in those years get that amount each month... 92-95 may be 180 a month.... for every credit year... if that makes sense.... actually a lot less per month than we put in

To be clear, not all pensions are mismanaged. Generally, when you hear talk of pensions and mismangement as discussed in this thread, it is the government pensions that are being criticized.

For example, I actually have a small pension from an employer where I was employed five years. I won't start drawing on it until I am 60 I believe, but it will be about $1000/mo. The firm contributed to the pension based on our salaries, etc. Completely privately managed and well funded. I'm glad I have it.

The issue is that pension funds in the context of state and city governments have been a source of largess / graft for politicians and public unions. They are poorly funded and the unions with the help of politicians award themselves retirement benefits that they'd never get under any other circumstances. In return, the politicians get the votes of the union members. All this is done at the expense of the tax payer.

Here in IL my taxes will be going up to essentially pay for other people's retirement benefits that are more generous than mine.

My wife and I have scrimped and saved so we will have a nice retirement. We will need about $3 million saved based on our financial planning. We are doing well and about half way there in our 40s. Per the article I linked in an earlier post, many teachers in IL are getting pensions valued around $2 million in retirement. They have in no way saved or even contributed enough to have "earned" a retirement package valued at $2 million.

This is why it is unsustainable and state and local municipalities are going broke.

a reply to: Edumakated

They are poorly funded and the unions with the help of politicians award themselves retirement benefits that they'd never get under any other circumstances. In return, the politicians get the votes of the union members. All this is done at the expense of the tax payer.

Yes that is true... Who would a teachers union or city workers union sign a contract with? The city? You can't blame the unions... you cant blame the union worker... Joe America has been collecting trash or teaching school for 30 years, made a decent wage and gets his pension he was promised.... That in itself does not sound like anything anybody can argue against...

They way you say it is based on their salary at retirement sound f'd up.... I pay way more into mine than I will ever get out... maybe that is what keeps ours solvent idk