The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons opposes federally mandated vaccines.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

No because they spout easily debunked anti vaxxer bull#.

As opposed to the easily debunked pro-vaxxer bull#?

Oooh you got me there with that sick, unverifiable, burn!

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
Your personal freedom ends when it encroaches onto others....

Correct... and your personal freedom to be pro-vaxx ends at my personal freedom to not be forced to be injected with toxic bull# that your religion believes is safe and effective in spite of reams of evidence to the contrary.

Post that evidence. You say reams but all you have are repeatedly discredited claims and repeatedly discredited quacks making them.

You are more likely to be hit by lightning than you are from suffering an adverse effect from a vaccine.

Measles has an infection rate of 90% for those not vaccinated.

originally posted by: projectvxn
Oooh you got me there with that sick, unverifiable, burn!

As opposed to your original unverified bull#?

originally posted by: MonkeyFishFrog
You are more likely to be hit by lightning than you are from suffering an adverse effect from a vaccine.

I could toss out more than a few unverified, unverifiable, bull# claims too... but I won't.

Measles has an infection rate of 90% for those not vaccinated.

And those same unvaccinated come out of it with lifelong, true immunity (as opposed to the questionable few years of half assed immunity you might get from a vaccine). And no need for unending life-lon 'boosters' that you are told you need more and more often as they learn just how ineffective the original vaccine really is.

Ok, I guess I will change my mind...

You are 10 times more likely to be struck by lightning than being in any real danger from getting the measles - unless you were born in and live in a third world country and are suffering from severe nutritional deficiencies and lack of clean water.

a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog

Wow! I am starting to feel targeted. I have experienced both.

Hit by lightning in a Kmart parking lot. Have not carried a lightening rod since. Being wet has a quick fix. Death isn't fixed very easily. Though my heart started back up again without much problem. Had some residual though.

I had an allergic reaction to not one, but three vaccines. Each was worse, until my doctor has recommended that I not take any more vaccines of any kind. The last shot left me unable to use my left arm for over three weeks.

originally posted by: projectvxn
Post that evidence. You say reams but all you have are repeatedly discredited claims and repeatedly discredited quacks making them.

Since you have already slammed the door, why bother?

But I would most definitely love to see your double blind placebo controlled studies proving that any vaccine is safe.

Or, what about the studies that are supposed to be - required by law to be - done on an ongoing basis proving that modern vaccines are safe? Oops, forgot to do any of those.

Look - it is obvious neither you nor I will ever convince the other.

What I'm really curious about though, is how - as someone who claims to believe in liberty and freedom - how do you justify some kind of 'right' to hold me, and my children, down at gunpoint, and stick needles in our bodies and inject us with foreign substances against our will?

Seriously, please, I'm all ears.

originally posted by: projectvxn
Communicable disease is no ones right to spread.

Being vaccinated does not prevent you from being able to spread communicable diseases.

In fact, anyone who gets a live vaccine is spreading that very disease through a process called 'shedding'.

Anyone who gets live vaccines should be required to enter quarantine until the shedding period is over.

originally posted by: Extorris
States can not force or mandate vaccines and should not be permitted to. It will never happen and is a silly discussion.

They are already talking about it, so, no, not a silly discussion.

Schools and other places where large numbers of kids are brought together daily have a right to exclude kids that would put entire populations at risk.

Still waiting for someone, anyone, to make a legitimate argument about how an unvaccinated child threatens your vaccinated child, if the vaccinations are so effective.

And spare me the scare-mongering about those rare cases of children who cannot get vaccines for one reason or another. In those cases, the onus is on that person (or the caregiver for that person) to protect them by not taking them out into public places, not to require everyone else to inject themselves.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Still waiting for someone, anyone, to make a legitimate argument about how an unvaccinated child threatens your vaccinated child, if the vaccinations are so effective.

That is a straw man argument. Vaccinations are not 100% effective.

In those cases, the onus is on that person (or the caregiver for that person) to protect them by not taking them out into public places

Like doctor's offices?

originally posted by: projectvxn
Those who have not yet been vaccinated depend on herd immunity

Sorry, but 'Herd Immunity' is a myth, when applied to vaccinated populations.

It was formulated based on observations in communities where more than half the people had been infected with a disease and developed natural, lifelong immunity to it, like one does with measles or chicken pox.

There is simply no, ZERO, evidence that it can ever apply to vaccinated populations, due to the fact that vaccines are nowhere near 100% effective (some more or less than others), and never, ever, provide lifelong immunity. In fact, over time, the medical community has constantly increased the number of boosters recommended (shortened the number of years between them).

a reply to: tanstaafl

Sorry, but 'Herd Immunity' is a myth, when applied to vaccinated populations.

It was formulated based on observations in communities where more than half the people had been infected with a disease and developed natural, lifelong immunity to it, like one does with measles or chicken pox.

It's the same principle. Except that, through vaccination, immunity is provided to those who never contract the potentially fatal or debilitating disease. Higher number of immune people = lower risk of infection = lower risk for all. Simple equation.

originally posted by: MonkeyFishFrog
Then don't participate in society.

Thanks, but no, I think I'll continue participating.

My sister has ulcerative colitis which means her immune system is always engaged and therefore weak.

So, she needs to start learning the causes, and get better. Eliminating all processed foods is the first step needed. Then I'd start drinking healing clay water, and maybe some activated charcoal. Heal the gut, and her problems vanish.

But, of course, if you realy on 'modern medicine', they will call this a bunch of woo-woo, and she listens to them, she will remain sick until she stops listening, or dies. Her choice.

Your right to carry a preventable disease does not trump her right to be able to just exist safely.

WTF does that even mean? You do know that a vaccinated person can still get sick with the disease, or be a carrier even if they don't become symptomatic, right?

The bottom line is, there are no guarantees in life. Deal with it.

When I get vaccinated I'm not just doing it for myself but for everyone else who can't. Those who don't get vaccinated for any reason other than legitimate medical reasons are the most selfish people. You arrogantly want to introduce and transmit highly infectious illnesses that shouldn't even exist anymore! It is utter bonkers.

No, what you just wrote is utter bonkers. Wishful thinking, that living in a world free of disease is even a possibility.

originally posted by: Phage
Vaccinations are not 100% effective.

Exactly, Not only that, some people who get vaccinated, get the actual disease from the vaccination.

So, again, how does my unvaccinated child threaten your vaccinated child - or even your unvaccinated child (if they cannot get vaccines for medical reasons)?

Like doctor's offices?

Yes. I hate going to doctors offices, because there are nothing but a bunch of sick people there.

Why on earth would anyone take someone who has serious immune system problems to a place that is known to be swimming with diseases?

a reply to: tanstaafl

Wishful thinking, that living in a world free of disease is even a possibility.

Yeah. Lots of smallpox going around these days. And polio.

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: rickymouse
You do realize that if they are allowed to force vaccines by a majority vote, they can possibly use that as precedence to sterilize men and women to control the population. Both men and women can be done with a single injection.

Think about that, precedence is used a lot in this country.

The single biggest reason I am against vaccines is I simply do not trust the pharmaceutical/medical/governmental/industrial complex.

How many times has the government gotten caught experimenting on unsuspecting groups or even entire populations?

Here is a decent article on immunity. If you can understand it, it can tell you how our innate immune system is being compromised, and with the Fad Nutrition parroting that things are good, it is causing problems with our innate system while not actually effecting our antigen system. Also many meds are negatively effecting our innate system too. The Drug companies know their meds are causing the best part of our immune system to not work right, that is why they are pushing vaccines. They are spreading rumors of how this or that food is good for us, like Omega Three foods, sure they are good in moderation, but you can meet the need by just eating decent foods, not super foods. Grass fed beef has plenty of Omega threes, a serving of fish has plenty, no need to start adding extra oils pills, too much can suppress our innate system.

Someone is setting up the American people to get diseases by initiating rumors but the truth is, only small amounts of these things in the diet are needed, people are going overboard with everything and it causes immune system problems. We can eat about twenty five percent junk food, but I see lots of junk food in people's carts at the store. Even fish can be junk food if you start eating it smothered with cajun seasoning or full of breading made from who knows what.

Read this through a couple of times and look up what you do not understand. lpi.oregonstate.edu...

a reply to: rickymouse

I guess smallpox never killed people until processed foods and stuff like vaccines came along.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Exactly, Not only that, some people who get vaccinated, get the actual disease from the vaccination.

Not really. Not enough to change the equation.

Why on earth would anyone take someone who has serious immune system problems to a place that is known to be swimming with diseases?

Better to stay home, untreated. I guess.
www.seattletimes.com...

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: rickymouse
Once you get the flu, you get immunity to it for life usually. Your immune system knows how to fight it even if it mutates a little bit.

Sorry? I know this is true for certain diseases, like chicken pox and measles... but the flu?

I don't think that is right.

It is right, once you get the H1N1 or other flues, your immune system learns from it and it knows how to attack it. If your innate immune system isn't compromised, it can keep you from getting the flu. Here is an article that talks about our immune responses, the antigen system takes way longer to react than the innate system. If the Thymus (I think that was the gland that set up the macrophages or one of the Phils with information) has experienced the flu, it keeps copies of the antigens in it and can copy them to set the antigen based system into play. Our immune system is way more us than antigens created by chickens. On top of that, if you eat eggs layed by chickens that have had the bird flu, they need to be fertile eggs though, that is where the info is supposedly stored, then you get a copy of that antigen which keeps your immune system working right. These days when a chicken sneezes once, off goes it's head. No risking spreading the bird flu to the whole factory farm. so eat your eggs, ones right from a farmer with a rooster servicing the hens.

lpi.oregonstate.edu...

a reply to: rickymouse

You know that article says that good nutrition works hand in hand with vaccinations, right? Helps them to be more effective.