How much in taxes do illegal immigrants actually pay?

I had an interesting discussion about illegal immigration today which made me think about things I hadn't considered before. I live in a rural area, and I have to honestly say that I have little experience with illegal immigration beyond what I saw while living in KC for a couple years. So keep that in mind when you bash me, and consider that what I'm asking might just be honest questions. Thanks That said--

When reading discussions about illegal immigration, two of the most common comments I see are, "Illegals are a drain on the system because of what they cost in welfare, healthcare, and the school system," and, on the other side, that "they're not a drain at all because they pay taxes."

Another very common statement is that "they do the jobs Americans won't do because it doesn't pay enough and the work's too hard." So that got me thinking.

How much, on average, do these people make per year? Are they making 60, 80, 120K per year? Cuz if not, what they pay in taxes is unlikely to offset what they take out of the system through "social safety net" programs, public school and the problems an overload of non-english speakers brings, ER visits, etc.

So are the majority of illegals crossing and working here working at decent- to high-paying jobs that provide enough income to actually pay in a noticeable portion of tax? Or are they primarily working at low-skill, low-wage jobs--all those jobs we're constantly told "American's won't do because the pay is too low"?

If the answer is the first option--they're working at jobs that pay enough for them to be paying in a decent amount of tax, then why can they not afford to come here legally? And if the answer is the second, that they're primarily working low-skill, low-paying jobs, then does anyone really think the small amount of tax they pay really offsets their cost?

And please, let's not get into any arguments about whether they're eligible for food stamps, or the question of identity theft. Neither of those is what this post is about. I'm asking, if illegal immigrants pay taxes, do we think the majority of them are working good-paying jobs and paying in more than a few hundred dollars per year tops in taxes? Are they really paying enough to offset the issues (like schooling)? And if so, why not come legally?

originally posted by: riiver
I'm asking, if illegal immigrants pay taxes, do we think the majority of them are working good-paying jobs and paying in more than a few hundred dollars per year tops in taxes? Are they really paying enough to offset the issues (like schooling)? And if so, why not come legally?

No..Illegal aliens are not paying enough in taxes to offset the number of Americans they have killed, the rapes, drugs they've carried into our country, etc. Since they are criminals the moment they illegally touch our soil, employment shouldn't be available. Food stamps, Medicaid? No Way.

I have seen 18 billion, but cost us 120 billion per year...

Does your average American pay enough in taxes to offset what they take out of the system?. It's not just what you earn per annum it's also what you decide to spend your money on.

You could argue that a low paid worker who crashes his entire monthly paycheck on high taxed goods pays more into the system than someone who earns more but hoards it.

A very difficult question to answer, since it would require you to accurately identify taxpayers who are “illegal”.

Since taxpayer information, such as Social Security Numbers (SSN’s), is confidential, and cannot be released by either the IRS or state tax agencies without a specific court order, there is no way to know how much in taxes are collected from persons using the incorrect SSN.

I do know for a fact, having spent more than 20 years as a representative for my State’s personal and business tax agency, that the undocumented do file returns and pay the commensurate amount of tax, based upon their reported income.

Oddly (or perhaps not), actual tax fraud (willful underpayment and/or under reporting) is more common among those with incomes above average and businesses.

I recently began actually preparing returns for a national firm (post retirement income) and, to date, not one of my clients, presenting as eligible for the Earned Income Credit (EIC), or other low-Income assistance has been “obviously” an undocumented individual.

There are, apparently, A LOT of poor American citizens out there.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
Does your average American pay enough in taxes to offset what they take out of the system?. It's not just what you earn per annum it's also what you decide to spend your money on.

You could argue that a low paid worker who crashes his entire monthly paycheck on high taxed goods pays more into the system than someone who earns more but hoards it.

Hmmn. That's an interesting take on it. Thanks

a reply to: carewemust

For the record, I'm not arguing for illegal immigration. I absolutely agree that illegal immigrants have no right to work and certainly no right to social programs. I'm trying to get my head around one of the big arguments of those who think we should look the other way, take in millions more than we already do, etc.

During my conversation earlier, I tried very hard to see it from the other person's point of view and to really, objectively, think about their position. But no matter how I turned it, the only way their argument made any sense at all is if the majority of illegals are...well, middle class I guess.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
I have seen 18 billion, but cost us 120 billion per year...

I actually haven't heard any numbers thrown around as to what they contribute, but I consistently see cost numbers in the $110-$120B range.

a reply to: riiver

Being they are here illegally they lack proper paperwork and are paid in cash,as do most day laborers,I used to hire them on occasion,stay under wire

a reply to: riiver

Any foreign student getting a college degree in the United States should be given citizenship with their diploma.

High skilled workers help the economy overall.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
I have seen 18 billion, but cost us 120 billion per year...

Prove it.

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: riiver
I'm asking, if illegal immigrants pay taxes, do we think the majority of them are working good-paying jobs and paying in more than a few hundred dollars per year tops in taxes? Are they really paying enough to offset the issues (like schooling)? And if so, why not come legally?

No..Illegal aliens are not paying enough in taxes to offset the number of Americans they have killed, the rapes, drugs they've carried into our country, etc. Since they are criminals the moment they illegally touch our soil, employment shouldn't be available. Food stamps, Medicaid? No Way.

I don't think you qualify for food stamps and medicaid without having a social security number.

I think it is impossible for illegals as a group to get ANYWHERE near paying enough taxes to offset what the government spends on them, and that is only a small fraction of the cost of illegals. You have to also consider the following:

Wage depression/stagnation - they will work for wages US citizen's won't. That keeps ALL wages low. If they didn't do this, wages would be where they should be (see the other thread that shows current minimum wage buys about 1/7 of what it did in 1960 - meaning the min wage would have to be $38 to be equal in buying power). You can largely thank illegals (20-33 million) for this gigantic wage depression as it effects all industries.

Higher cost in housing - this mainly effects the lowest income groups in the US (those competing with illegals). That extra 20-33 million illegals all need housing, which drives up the cost of housing A LOT.

Lower quality education - School districts & teachers having to spend MUCH more per student (illegal) to accommodate for non-English speaking teachers, classes,etc. Kids who are adults claiming to be kids and going to school (happens here & Europe). Teachers having to spend much more time with illegals to get them caught up to their peers. Possibly free lunches and other school related fees

Higher cost of healthcare - Openly admired by hospitals in San Fran (Zuckerberg Gen or whatever it's called) where they don't accept many major insurances (but take medicade/care) so patient ends up with a HUGE bill (much higher than what would have been charged even to an insurance company!!) This extra money was meant to be used to cover people w/o insurance (sanctuary city residents....?) This isn't isolated to that hospital and I think it is what is intended to be rolled out across the country once we see consolidation of healthcare providers, insurance companies and drug/pharmacies (to push people into "socialized healthcare").

Added cost to law enforcement - My local city (less than 40K people) has court docket's filled with illegals, often over 1/2 the people on the police log are illegals, many of them serious felony (drug, assault, murder, armed robbery, etc) charges.

There's many more costs that aren't easily seen and if you think there is ANY way their minimum wage jobs (many of which are using stolen identities) are paying for this ENORMOUS financial burden, then IDK what to say. The people who say that they do pay for themselves are either out right lying to you, lying to themselves, are completely brainwashed and or ignorant or a mix of all of them.

If you want to know how illegals effect an economy take a look at how the population of ANY country reacts to the influx of ANY immigrant population, legal or illegal (it's usually more drastic for illegals). Legal residents are almost always 100% against LARGE influxes unless there is a specific need in specific fields (or after a war, natural disaster, etc). The reason is b/c they always depress wages and cause social unrest b/c of this. The people who usually welcome them are those who benefit (usually financially or politically) and it isn't race/ethnicity related for them not being wanted (that is a falsity used by media/politicians). Look at England where they were largely against Poles coming to the country. Are they racist for that? They are the same color and many are the same religion (well English Catholics at least) - it's because they drive wages down.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: riiver

Any foreign student getting a college degree in the United States should be given citizenship with their diploma.

High skilled workers help the economy overall.

Now that's a proposition I haven't heard before. Hmmn. I'm not sure how I feel about it; it's definitely something to think about. Thanks for giving me something new to consider.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: riiver
I'm asking, if illegal immigrants pay taxes, do we think the majority of them are working good-paying jobs and paying in more than a few hundred dollars per year tops in taxes? Are they really paying enough to offset the issues (like schooling)? And if so, why not come legally?

No..Illegal aliens are not paying enough in taxes to offset the number of Americans they have killed, the rapes, drugs they've carried into our country, etc. Since they are criminals the moment they illegally touch our soil, employment shouldn't be available. Food stamps, Medicaid? No Way.

I don't think you qualify for food stamps and medicaid without having a social security number.

That's the impression I've always been under too. However, I've also spoken to a lot of people who swear that they know illegals who get one or both. Maybe it varies by state? On the other hand, we do know that there are a large number of illegals using stolen social security numbers and that identity theft is almost a cottage industry so there is that too.

originally posted by: Oldtimer2
a reply to: riiver

Being they are here illegally they lack proper paperwork and are paid in cash,as do most day laborers,I used to hire them on occasion,stay under wire

So you're saying the "but they pay taxes" argument is a specious one and that most illegals work for cash under the table? (Not arguing, just clarifying.)

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: riiver
I'm asking, if illegal immigrants pay taxes, do we think the majority of them are working good-paying jobs and paying in more than a few hundred dollars per year tops in taxes? Are they really paying enough to offset the issues (like schooling)? And if so, why not come legally?

No..Illegal aliens are not paying enough in taxes to offset the number of Americans they have killed, the rapes, drugs they've carried into our country, etc. Since they are criminals the moment they illegally touch our soil, employment shouldn't be available. Food stamps, Medicaid? No Way.

I don't think you qualify for food stamps and medicaid without having a social security number.

No but the children they have here are entitled to our welfare programs. Those programs such as Medicaid and Food Stamps extend to the entire family (the illegal immigrant parents) as the benefits are based off the number of people living in the household. I know this from working for Medicaid.

a reply to: Anathros

www.washingtonexaminer.com...

Nearly 40 million Social Security numbers have been stolen and used by illegal immigrants and others to get work, according to agency records obtained by an immigration reform group. The Immigration Reform Law Institute said that from 2012 to 2016 there were “39 million instances where names and Social Security numbers on W-2 tax forms did not match the corresponding Social Security records.”

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Thanks for the reply--I always enjoy reading your posts so I'm really pleased to see you in this thread

I agree with pretty much all your points, and this really interested me as it wasn't something I'd read or heard before:

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
Higher cost of healthcare - Openly admired by hospitals in San Fran (Zuckerberg Gen or whatever it's called) where they don't accept many major insurances (but take medicade/care) so patient ends up with a HUGE bill (much higher than what would have been charged even to an insurance company!!) This extra money was meant to be used to cover people w/o insurance (sanctuary city residents....?) This isn't isolated to that hospital and I think it is what is intended to be rolled out across the country once we see consolidation of healthcare providers, insurance companies and drug/pharmacies (to push people into "socialized healthcare").

Let me make sure I really understood what you're describing. You're saying that this hospital refuses to take most major insurance but does take Medicaid, and the reason is so that they can stick people with huge cash bills to have the $ to cover uninsured people...with an emphasis on illegal immigrants? That's...wow. I'm speechless. That's just obscene. If you have the name of the hospital, or a link to more information on the topic, I would really appreciate it. I'd like to read more.

Text

originally posted by: riiver
a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Thanks for the reply--I always enjoy reading your posts so I'm really pleased to see you in this thread

I agree with pretty much all your points, and this really interested me as it wasn't something I'd read or heard before:

originally posted by: DigginFoTroof
Higher cost of healthcare - Openly admired by hospitals in San Fran (Zuckerberg Gen or whatever it's called) where they don't accept many major insurances (but take medicade/care) so patient ends up with a HUGE bill (much higher than what would have been charged even to an insurance company!!) This extra money was meant to be used to cover people w/o insurance (sanctuary city residents....?) This isn't isolated to that hospital and I think it is what is intended to be rolled out across the country once we see consolidation of healthcare providers, insurance companies and drug/pharmacies (to push people into "socialized healthcare").

Let me make sure I really understood what you're describing. You're saying that this hospital refuses to take most major insurance but does take Medicaid, and the reason is so that they can stick people with huge cash bills to have the $ to cover uninsured people...with an emphasis on illegal immigrants? That's...wow. I'm speechless. That's just obscene. If you have the name of the hospital, or a link to more information on the topic, I would really appreciate it. I'd like to read more.

I thought this was total BS when I first heard it. I thought there was no way the story was being reported accurately. There was a story about a guy getting taken into the ER, with good, expensive insurance, for something fairly minor (head bump in car accident or something..?) they did a CT or MRI and he was out in 4-5 hours with a $40 or $60K bill, with no insurance accepted (except medicade/care). I think he negotiated the $60k down to $40K and now he is bankrupt or lost his house IIRC. There are LOTS of stories like this and I think they have been going on since 2017 or so.

Here is a google search that

www.google.com...

Each of the articles below has some good "unique" info to each article, but all explain what is going on with the situation. Even the title of the articles can explain a lot.

nypost.com...

www.newsweek.com...

www.vox.com...

www.cnbc.com...

www.kqed.org...

doctordidyouwashyourhands.com... ercial-insurance-is-out-of-network-2/

There have been a number of news stories done on this issue, I know Vice covered this pretty well (not biased IIRC) and they really questioned the motives and reasoning behind this practice. I do remember a hospital administrator telling a reporter that they do this to offer a higher quality of care to the patients or something like that, basically that they are doing it for the patient's sake. It came across as 150,000% BS when I heard it and I remember noticing the reporter seemed to be thinking the same.

As far as the reasoning behind this, I think it is still speculation, but when a person with no insurance can walk out of the hospital with no bill, but someone with insurance walks out with a $60k bill (or $280K in another case), then something doesn't add up, especially when it's the only trauma center in San Fran (lots of ER visits). So are the people w/ insurance going to the ER subsidizing those without insurance (illegals)??